Judge Allows Spousal Rape on Islamic Grounds

[David]

It's impossible to argue with those with world views which believe that anything is correct if at least one person thinks it. If I were to pull out a gun and shoot you right now, for no cited reason, would that be moral?

This depends on our upbringing, so no for me.

so, then, should I be tried for murder? My religion, the church of Wackoism (one member) says that murder is justified.

What's the justification? Also, religion has to be recognized. If the country does recognize it then you'd be locked up for a long, long time. There is no way a country will recognize that as a religion.

 

[Dean]

What if my upbringing said that shooting you for no reason was not only moral, but called upon by god?

Aren't those who we call extremists; it being a false accusation. Any knowledgeable person would know that no religion's god(no offense) tells a man to kill another man just to satisfy him. Therefore, if you're reason for shooting being was god, you are thereby declared an extremist of your religion.

 

[Cosmic]

@dotDavid: Is there a list of recognized religions in the United States? If so, link? The constitution guarantees me freedom to worship my religion, so I don't know that a list like that would be in the spirit of the founding. My point is that just because my religion says that you should die, let's say because your name starts with a D, doesn't make it right.

@Ryan King: No, murder is actually mainstream Wackoism. we believe, in our world-view, that it is entirely acceptable, just like many Muslims believe that stoning women to death is acceptable. Also, look back in the past. Human sacrifice, anyone? Think Aztecs.

If you are willing to accept that every Muslim who kills another because of Sharea (sp?) law is an extremist and you are a moderate, I will agree with you 100% on that matter.

 

[David]

Ok, under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights of 1966, passed by the United Nations General Assembly, under Article 18, it states:

Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs may be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary to protect public safety, order, health, or morals or the fundamental rights and freedoms of others.

Your religion believes in murder as the mainstream view. This is against the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights thus the practice of your religion is not allowed as it endorses murder, which is against the law.

 

[Cosmic]

Ok, under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights of 1966, passed by the United Nations General Assembly, under Article 18, it states:

Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs may be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary to protect public safety, order, health, or morals or the fundamental rights and freedoms of others.

Your religion believes in murder as the mainstream view. This is against the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights thus the practice of your religion is not allowed as it endorses murder, which is against the law.

Then, if that is so, then how can Muslims crashing a plane into one of *our* buildings be okay if you're a Muslim? You're saying that you think it's wrong, but according to an entirely unbiased body, it is a clash of opinions, not murder. Thus, either I can pull out my gun and shoot you dead for no reason according to my religious beliefs, or the Muslims can't crash a plane into *our* buildings.

 

[David]

I'm not a Muslim 😕

Those who crashed into the WTC and Pentagon were not modern day Islamics, they are Islamists. They believe Islam is also a political system. Al-Qaeda is an extremist terrorist organization.

The deaths of those on 9/11 are not justified in a Western world, but in a Islamic world, it can be seen as to why it happened, if you are a Sunni. But, the attacks aren't like "Islam/Muslim vs. Western World". It was merely a terrorist group believing in a religious sect that attacked USA.

Your religion, on the other hand, has no justification and the practice of it, in USA for your case, is against the law. Islamism isn't practiced in USA to a public extent.

 

[Cosmic]

The people who destroyed the World Trade Center were Muslims and they did it because of a fairly common, but not moderate, interpretation of Islam. There are a lot of people who are peaceful Muslims, and I don't really have a grudge against them because they don't interpret the Koran in a militant manner which involves stoning. However, in some countries, it is mainstream to stone people to death. I doubt that any of the "Muslims" posting here are actually in this sect of Islam.

Really, what they have a consensus on doesn't have to be right at all. Can you at least admit that stoning women to death for adultery when they re in fact innocent is immoral?

 

[David]

There are Islamists not Muslims. There is a difference.

Really, what they have a consensus on doesn't have to be right at all. Can you at least admit that stoning women to death for adultery when they re in fact innocent is immoral?

Did I ever say that stoning people was moral? I don't need to admit to anything; I know that stoning people is immoral. On the other hand, I don't appreciate those who don't take an open mind on the differing perspectives of different belief systems, unless you can "admit" that you have looked at it from a Western perspective and disregarding the reasons as to why these things do actually happen?

 

[Dean]

Destorying buildings to take the lives of many is a common intepretation of Islam? Islam is the second largest religion in the world, if that was a common belief, i doubt many buildings would exist today. I really wonder where you are basing this forum.

And of course the Muslims posting here aren't in the section of stoning women, we are civil people, which is what Islam teaches. If it's the mainstream of a country to stone women to death, shouldn't you blame the country and not the religion? Or does the religion's teachings change
because of one country's beliefs?

 

[Cosmic]

In Saudi Arabia and Iran, Ryan King, Islam IS the government. It IS their constitution. You may not believe that sharia law should be followed and practiced, but Muslims in the east do.

In Saudi Arabia, they have morality police that go around carrying sticks. If you do not bow down to prayer at the right time, they beat you. If you are a woman and are found near a non-relative male, you are beaten. If you are a woman and you do not have your face covered in public, you are beaten. This IS reality. They do this in other parts of the world, and you can't deny it. I keep telling you what other Muslims do across the world but you keep saying that Islam teaches only peace. Your variety does, but in other countries, in the real middle east, Islam is totalitarian.

Islamic Morality Police: 290,000 results on Google!

 

[Sayf Udeen]

Cosmic, froma Muslim. You have no idea what Islam is and no idea what Sharia is.
I wouldn't be surprised if you've never met a Muslim, never spoken to a Muslim.

I'm not a 'moderate'. I am a Muslim, a practising Muslim. That is that.
The people who crashed the planes into the WTC on 9/11 will have to answer to Allah swt like the rest of us! And Allah swt will judge them for all of their actions, inclusive of that. According to Islamic belief. It was a dispicable, terrorist act.

Islam comes from two sources, the Qur'aan and the Sunnah. If an act isn't justified in those two sources, then it's not Islamic.
The terrorist attacks that took place, with any excuses made do fall into the category of being from outside of those sources, therefore were not Islamic.
Point blank. That's that.

If you believe that Islam is murderous. Prove it. Find me a TRUE source to justify your statement.

(And don't go to any random site you find on Google. Any learned and educated Muslim can see right through that crap!)

Also, where did you get your information about Saudi Arabia from? American Dad or something? *Rolls eyes* :roll:

 

[Cosmic]

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&&sa=X&ei=s ... 5a0cce78cd

290,000 results. I hope you can find something that suites your standards. You will find A LOT of headlines which say "____ Islamic Morality Police invade/crack down on/ arrest ____"

It's shocking how ignorant real Muslims in the west are of their middle-eastern brothers like the Saudis and Iranians. You all just talk like the terrorists are the only wackos, but look at the Saudis.

P.S. http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=saudi+re ... 5a0cce78cd

About 7,180,000 results (0.28 seconds)

Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutaween

The Mutaween in Saudi Arabia are tasked with enforcing Sharia as defined by the government, specifically by the Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice (CPVPV). The Mutaween of the CPVPV consists of "more than 3,500 officers in addition to thousands of volunteers...often accompanied by a police escort." They have the power to arrest unrelated males and females caught socializing, anyone engaged in homosexual behavior or prostitution; to enforce Islamic dress-codes, and store closures during the prayer time. They enforce Muslim dietary laws, prohibit the consumption or sale of alcoholic beverages and pork, and seize banned consumer products and media regarded as un-Islamic (such as CDs/DVDs of various Western musical groups, television shows and film). Additionally, they actively prevent the practice or proselytizing of other religions within Saudi Arabia, where they are banned.[3][4]
Among the things the Mutaween have been criticized or ridiculed for include, use of flogging to punish violators,[5][6] banning Valentines Day gifts,[7][8] arresting priests for saying Mass,[9] and being staffed by "ex-convicts whose only job qualification was that they had memorized the Qur'an in order to reduce their sentences."[10]

Perhaps the most serious and widely criticized incident attributed to them occurred on March 11, 2002, when they prevented schoolgirls from escaping a burning school in Mecca, because the girls were not wearing headscarves and abayas (black robes), and not accompanied by a male guardian. Fifteen girls died and 50 were injured as a result. Widespread public criticism followed, both internationally and within Saudi Arabia.[11]

In many incidents in 2008, they have been criticized for many deaths occurring in separate occasions including one man's death from a heart-attack that occurred while he was in their custody. The employers of the man claimed that he would not have had the attack unless triggered due to extreme pressure or stress.

In August 2008, a young Saudi woman who had converted to Christianity was burned to death after having her tongue cut out by her own father, a member of the Committee.[12]

Looks like Nazi Germany, but worse, to me.

Hmm, lookie here:

Perhaps the most serious and widely criticized incident attributed to them occurred on March 11, 2002, when they prevented schoolgirls from escaping a burning school in Mecca, because the girls were not wearing headscarves and abayas (black robes), and not accompanied by a male guardian. Fifteen girls died and 50 were injured as a result. Widespread public criticism followed, both internationally and within Saudi Arabia.[11]

Reeeeeeeally peaceful. Hey, didn't the Nazis do that? I seem to recall that when a fire broke out in Nazi Germany in a Jewish neighborhood the fire department would report to keep the blaze from spreading, not put it out.

Also, this part sounds painful:

In August 2008, a young Saudi woman who had converted to Christianity was burned to death after having her tongue cut out by her own father, a member of the Committee.[12]

 

[Dean]

Then the country's government is corrupt, not their religion. You give me few links to google search results, what is that suppose to do? I get your point, I understand you are trying to show that the Islamic gov't in the middle east is extreme and outrageous but you're making a mistake, you're blaming it on the religion they follow, not their false understanding of the religion.

It's almost if I were to go kill my gf because she cheated on me, would the court give me a death sentence or would they blame my family and give them as well me the death sentence? Islam is the seed, people grow from it. Same concept, family is the seed, I grew from it.

I really, really don't disagree what you're saying about the middle easterns but I can't stand the fact that you're putting all these inevitable things on the religion.

I'm not sure if that was pointed at me or not, but I might be born here and brought up here, but I still know my heritage, religion and culture and I am no way bias or ignorant. Probably you're the ignorant one here as you can't seem to understand Islam isn't the foundation of these terror acts, it's the false interpretation of it.

 

[Cosmic]

Then the country's government is corrupt, not their religion. You give me few links to google search results, what is that suppose to do? I get your point, I understand you are trying to show that the Islamic gov't in the middle east is extreme and outrageous but you're making a mistake, you're blaming it on the religion they follow, not their false understanding of the religion.

It's almost if I were to go kill my gf because she cheated on me, would the court give me a death sentence or would they blame my family and give them as well me the death sentence? Islam is the seed, people grow from it. Same concept, family is the seed, I grew from it.

I really, really don't disagree what you're saying about the middle easterns but I can't stand the fact that you're putting all these inevitable things on the religion.

I'm not sure if that was pointed at me or not, but I might be born here and brought up here, but I still know my heritage, religion and culture and I am no way bias or ignorant. Probably you're the ignorant one here as you can't seem to understand Islam isn't the foundation of these terror acts, it's the false interpretation of it.

According to Dotdavid, there is no false interpretation, rather there are conflicts of culture and opinions.

 

[Sayf Udeen]

No, there ARE false interpretations.
And yes, the government is corrupt. There is not one truly Islamically governed nation on Earth.

Funnily enough, I see you continue to get your information from random Googling and completely ignore what I said in my post...

"Islam comes from two sources, the Qur'aan and the Sunnah. If an act isn't justified in those two sources, then it's not Islamic."

"(And don't go to any random site you find on Google. Any learned and educated Muslim can see right through that crap!)"

Cosmic, you're an ignorant bigot cos you choose to be an ignorant bigot.
I'm done with talking to you, and reading this thread.

 

[Dean]

Cosmic, you're an ignorant bigot cos you choose to be an ignorant bigot.
I'm done with talking to you, and reading this thread.

Sayf, there's no need to personally attack anyone here, this is a debate forum. Cosmic is simply upholding his opinions and his views.

According to Dotdavid, there is no false interpretation, rather there are conflicts of culture and opinions.

David is right in his own sense, the government became corrupt and mislead their countries with false interpretation due to their culture and opinions which do conflict with the culture and moral of most, if not, all other cultures. I don't think I read anything from David that directly stated there was any false interpretation, he might have been implying but nothing direct. :shrug:

Must say, haven't really "debated" like this since my early high school years 🙂.

 

[Sayf Udeen]

Sorry if it came off as though I'm taking it personally.
I'm calling Cosmic as I see him, though. Like, he has clearly never even made an effort to actually investigate Islam and he clearly gets all of his knowledge on the topic from Faux News.

I juse see where this debate is going - nowhere. 🙂

 

[Cosmic]

Sorry if it came off as though I'm taking it personally.
I'm calling Cosmic as I see him, though. Like, he has clearly never even made an effort to actually investigate Islam and he clearly gets all of his knowledge on the topic from Faux News.

I juse see where this debate is going - nowhere. 🙂

Actually, I'm more of a Rush Limbaugh guy than Fox News.

 

[katy perry is hot]

Sorry if it came off as though I'm taking it personally.
I'm calling Cosmic as I see him, though. Like, he has clearly never even made an effort to actually investigate Islam and he clearly gets all of his knowledge on the topic from Faux News.

I juse see where this debate is going - nowhere. 🙂

Actually, I'm more of a Rush Limbaugh guy than Fox News.

Even better :great:

 

[Sayf Udeen]

Do you have anything of substance to say to me?
Or is that it?