I suppose I just don't understand what you are trying to say here...
Abortion
- Thread starter isao21
- Start date
Red Herring
Paragon
Ignoring the idea that an embryo within the stage where it's legal to abort couldn't even be called a lifeform at that point, I fully acknowledge that abortion is murder. An embryo may not technically be a life at the point of its abortion, however, abortion is still stamping out its possibility...its chance at life. The "choice" of life is greedily stolen away from the embryo and snuffed out entirely by its host parent. It will never know the pleasures or pains of life, for better or for worse. And the forcible taking of a life (even if it's just a possibility of life) by another is the very definition of "murder."
You know what's also murder? Masturbation. In fact, masturbation is practically genocide and comparatively far worse than abortion ever could be. The testicles produce approximately two hundred to five hundred million sperm, all of which is released upon ejaculation...all of which subsequently die. Each of those sperm is a potential embryo, each of which is a potential life. Sure, it may not have "fought" through the miracle of chance and became an embryo, but now they'll never have the chance to become one, now will they?
Now, do I see any form of unethical issue with either of these? Not at all. By that logic, then...swallowing would be "cannibalism."
Nathan may have been a bit clumsy in his reasoning (no offense, Nathan), but his point is completely valid. Adoption is not always a good thing. There's a great many children out there that end up in abusive foster families or never find a permanent home. Sometimes this may be preferable to not having a life at all, but not always. And in regards to the accidental parents, they're usually simply not ready to have a child. Their financial status may be nowhere near capable of supporting a child's growth and may ultimately end up destroying their life as well as their child's.
Secondly, as just about any woman who has experienced it can tell you, the process of child birth is a very painful one that not only causes enormous pain, but can also do irreparable damage...or in rare cases, even kill the mother. Does a woman really deserve to bear that burden just because they failed to prevent an unwanted pregnancy?
I honestly don't believe that "They knew the risks" is a reason to negate their choice here. We as Humans beings have a very strong biological urge to reproduce, one that can become downright painful if not satiated in some way, either through intercourse or masturbation. It's a temptation that very few can truly resist indulging at some point, especially in youth where sexual drive is at its highest point. It's really unfair to place blame and force responsibility on individuals trying to fight off that urge when it was not their intention to produce life in the first place.
Lastly, this being my primary standpoint, and one that many of you probably will strongly oppose or even be appalled by, but nonetheless. I fully acknowledge that abortion is murder. However, I really don't care, because it's not the same kind of murder as repeatedly stabbing someone with a knife or other brutal forms of forcibly taking another life. The fact remains that in the stage where an embryo is legal to abort, it really isn't much of a life. Removing it causes it no pain, because it cannot feel pain. It's unfortunate that we're taking its chance at life, but I will always side with the individuals that could potentially have their own lives ruined by prematurely having a child. The life and well-being of a Human that is already on the path of life is more important to me than an unborn embryo that doesn't have a life yet.
That being said, once an embryo develops to the point where it could irrefutably be called a "life", I am mostly against its abortion. But when all is said and done, I am very much a pro-choice individual.
You know what's also murder? Masturbation. In fact, masturbation is practically genocide and comparatively far worse than abortion ever could be. The testicles produce approximately two hundred to five hundred million sperm, all of which is released upon ejaculation...all of which subsequently die. Each of those sperm is a potential embryo, each of which is a potential life. Sure, it may not have "fought" through the miracle of chance and became an embryo, but now they'll never have the chance to become one, now will they?
Now, do I see any form of unethical issue with either of these? Not at all. By that logic, then...swallowing would be "cannibalism."
Nathan may have been a bit clumsy in his reasoning (no offense, Nathan), but his point is completely valid. Adoption is not always a good thing. There's a great many children out there that end up in abusive foster families or never find a permanent home. Sometimes this may be preferable to not having a life at all, but not always. And in regards to the accidental parents, they're usually simply not ready to have a child. Their financial status may be nowhere near capable of supporting a child's growth and may ultimately end up destroying their life as well as their child's.
Secondly, as just about any woman who has experienced it can tell you, the process of child birth is a very painful one that not only causes enormous pain, but can also do irreparable damage...or in rare cases, even kill the mother. Does a woman really deserve to bear that burden just because they failed to prevent an unwanted pregnancy?
I honestly don't believe that "They knew the risks" is a reason to negate their choice here. We as Humans beings have a very strong biological urge to reproduce, one that can become downright painful if not satiated in some way, either through intercourse or masturbation. It's a temptation that very few can truly resist indulging at some point, especially in youth where sexual drive is at its highest point. It's really unfair to place blame and force responsibility on individuals trying to fight off that urge when it was not their intention to produce life in the first place.
Lastly, this being my primary standpoint, and one that many of you probably will strongly oppose or even be appalled by, but nonetheless. I fully acknowledge that abortion is murder. However, I really don't care, because it's not the same kind of murder as repeatedly stabbing someone with a knife or other brutal forms of forcibly taking another life. The fact remains that in the stage where an embryo is legal to abort, it really isn't much of a life. Removing it causes it no pain, because it cannot feel pain. It's unfortunate that we're taking its chance at life, but I will always side with the individuals that could potentially have their own lives ruined by prematurely having a child. The life and well-being of a Human that is already on the path of life is more important to me than an unborn embryo that doesn't have a life yet.
That being said, once an embryo develops to the point where it could irrefutably be called a "life", I am mostly against its abortion. But when all is said and done, I am very much a pro-choice individual.
Bluezone777
Dinner Team Leader
I think it's pretty obvious that abortion is murder and any semantics we throw around over what we deem life is merely the mind rationalizing what it knows is wrong. Sperm and an egg alone is not human life. It doesn't begin to be human life till they come together. If the act of masturbation is murder then so is all those eggs that women involuntary flush from their systems every month when they don't get pregnant is murder too then. Who really wants to buy into that logic?
Every human being here has the capacity to make choices and to resist temptations and it's when we fail to do so that we do harm to ourselves and others. If you go into a sexual encounter knowing a child could come of it but do so anyway then you already made your choice whether you like it or not. Both involved had the choice to walk away but chose not to. Getting an abortion is pretty much what someone does when they have their fun but don't want to own up to the consequences of poor choices. It not much different from a 20 something year old blowing all his money on booze then expecting his parents to pay his bills to spare him the pain that is coming because of his bad choices. Preventing him from suffering through the pain he caused himself is doing more harm then good. With the pain comes wisdom to never do that again but how can he learn if the consequences are always removed from the actions he takes?
Adoption doesn't always end up working out as we hope but it's basically making the best out of a bad situation that doesn't involving killing an unborn child because two people allowed themselves to fall into lust. Better yet, how about raise the child like you should and start taking responsibility for yourself rather then foisting it on someone else when they weren't the ones who felt like ignoring good sense of not having sex with someone that you aren't committed to? You'd be surprised at how much you spend on things you don't really need and could do without in order to pay for this child's care. Of course that means denying yourself pleasure to right the wrongs you made by having sex with someone you aren't committed to. It goes right back to consequences of bad choices.
Now this doesn't mean I think abortion should be made illegal because I don't agree with that either. Making it illegal doesn't make it go away nor end it. What needs to be done is to show there are better ways to go about it then go down that route and better educate people on adoption, safe sex and learning a little self control couldn't hurt either. Most would rather ditch the consequences and never own up to anything because of how easy it seems to make a problem go away without a second thought to who gets hurt by it which is why so many fight to support abortion.
People can and will get into situations when abortion is the only choice available as we do live in a rather messed up broken world where nothing works like it should but it's different when the problem didn't come from a conscious decision rather then unforeseeable circumstances.
The fact that birth control can fail just shows us the perfect reason to resist the temptation rather then satisfy it because there is nothing you can do to fully prevent a pregnancy so why risk it by having sex? It's not easy and I won't deny it but who ever said a good life was to ever come easy for anyone?
// my two cents
Every human being here has the capacity to make choices and to resist temptations and it's when we fail to do so that we do harm to ourselves and others. If you go into a sexual encounter knowing a child could come of it but do so anyway then you already made your choice whether you like it or not. Both involved had the choice to walk away but chose not to. Getting an abortion is pretty much what someone does when they have their fun but don't want to own up to the consequences of poor choices. It not much different from a 20 something year old blowing all his money on booze then expecting his parents to pay his bills to spare him the pain that is coming because of his bad choices. Preventing him from suffering through the pain he caused himself is doing more harm then good. With the pain comes wisdom to never do that again but how can he learn if the consequences are always removed from the actions he takes?
Adoption doesn't always end up working out as we hope but it's basically making the best out of a bad situation that doesn't involving killing an unborn child because two people allowed themselves to fall into lust. Better yet, how about raise the child like you should and start taking responsibility for yourself rather then foisting it on someone else when they weren't the ones who felt like ignoring good sense of not having sex with someone that you aren't committed to? You'd be surprised at how much you spend on things you don't really need and could do without in order to pay for this child's care. Of course that means denying yourself pleasure to right the wrongs you made by having sex with someone you aren't committed to. It goes right back to consequences of bad choices.
Now this doesn't mean I think abortion should be made illegal because I don't agree with that either. Making it illegal doesn't make it go away nor end it. What needs to be done is to show there are better ways to go about it then go down that route and better educate people on adoption, safe sex and learning a little self control couldn't hurt either. Most would rather ditch the consequences and never own up to anything because of how easy it seems to make a problem go away without a second thought to who gets hurt by it which is why so many fight to support abortion.
People can and will get into situations when abortion is the only choice available as we do live in a rather messed up broken world where nothing works like it should but it's different when the problem didn't come from a conscious decision rather then unforeseeable circumstances.
The fact that birth control can fail just shows us the perfect reason to resist the temptation rather then satisfy it because there is nothing you can do to fully prevent a pregnancy so why risk it by having sex? It's not easy and I won't deny it but who ever said a good life was to ever come easy for anyone?
// my two cents
The Governor
Seasoned Veteran
I could've sworn I already posted about this on FP, guess not.
Whether or not people like it, it's the woman's body. If she wants an abortion, it really doesn't matter if she's offending a bunch of strangers by killing her baby, she has the right to make that decision. I find it extremely stupid that in some cases, strangers are allowed to dictate what a pregnant woman can and can't do with her body. If it was a special circumstance, then by all means, let someone tell her what to do, for 98% of the cases, the woman is of fine mental health and is able to make said decision.
I find it interesting how people say a rape victim who is pregnant has no right to terminate the pregnancy. She didn't ask to have a child, she didn't want the child. That is cruel and unusual to say "sorry you were raped, but you have no right to do what you want with your body". She'd be being victimized again!
Whether or not people like it, it's the woman's body. If she wants an abortion, it really doesn't matter if she's offending a bunch of strangers by killing her baby, she has the right to make that decision. I find it extremely stupid that in some cases, strangers are allowed to dictate what a pregnant woman can and can't do with her body. If it was a special circumstance, then by all means, let someone tell her what to do, for 98% of the cases, the woman is of fine mental health and is able to make said decision.
I find it interesting how people say a rape victim who is pregnant has no right to terminate the pregnancy. She didn't ask to have a child, she didn't want the child. That is cruel and unusual to say "sorry you were raped, but you have no right to do what you want with your body". She'd be being victimized again!
Bluezone777
Dinner Team Leader
I don't see why that would be the case as there are plenty of women against abortion so if being able to bear children didn't stop them from being against it then I don't see why men being able to bear children would change anything.
The Governor
Seasoned Veteran
Bluezone777 said:
I believe because only women can bear children, a lot of opinions are more biased on the matter. I understand what she's saying, but it's hard to try and type exactly what she means. If men were able to give birth, the same men who have extremely negative opinions, or opinions that are opposite of the pregnant woman's opinion, theirs may change once they are the one pregnant. For example, a guy wants his girlfriend to abort only thinking of himself and not wanting the child. He is unable to really be emotional about the situation, nor does he doesn't fully understand the emotional side of being pregnant.
If he was the one pregnant, he was the one with a human life inside of him, he could go from pro abortion to anti abortion if he begins to understand the emotional side of being pregnant.
If killing a living person is a charge then killing a living thing inside the womb of a women is also a charge.I am Muslim and according to my religious that it is unfortified sin to kill a baby in mother's womb if it is intentional . Ok, now thing from the sense of humanity, how can you deserve to take a life of such a creature of God, who gives you no harm and neither think of providing any harm to you.Now the choice is yours.
The Governor
Seasoned Veteran
emmiehunk said:
When there is no real evidence of a "god", you cannot use that in an argument such as this. A bible does not count as proof. The baby may be "living" in the womb, but it's still in the mother, it's a product of the mother. It is not considered an individual human life. Being a product of someone's body means the owner of the body has every right to say "I want an abortion".
UnholyVision
Acquaintance
I am pro abortion. If the parent or parents can not provide I would rather see a child not have to suffer from poor conditions & possible lack of educational means. Also, what kind of life is it starving to death to feed your child or both starving some days due to lack of money.
What amazes me is (not all, but there are quiet a few) these people that don't want abortion of a child, but refuse the children means of adoption. They would rather see the children grow up in a poor environment to suffer with the parent or be forced in who knows what conditions in an orphanage until they are adults. Adoption just does not always happen with how the process to adopt works. It can take forever & when a kid gets a chance at a good home it better not be a gay couple. Because if it is someone possibly from that same group on abortion is there to complain on that. (Yeah that is a different topic, but it does sort of go hand and hand).
Yeah, I am clip noting you here & know you have a higher point to all this. I read it all the way through and such, but just wanted to add to that mind set.Red Herring said:
What amazes me is (not all, but there are quiet a few) these people that don't want abortion of a child, but refuse the children means of adoption. They would rather see the children grow up in a poor environment to suffer with the parent or be forced in who knows what conditions in an orphanage until they are adults. Adoption just does not always happen with how the process to adopt works. It can take forever & when a kid gets a chance at a good home it better not be a gay couple. Because if it is someone possibly from that same group on abortion is there to complain on that. (Yeah that is a different topic, but it does sort of go hand and hand).
I myself, personally don't believe in abortion. Despite whether anyone agrees or disagrees with me; I don't think its anyone's right to take a life. Those are my thoughts on this matter. Sorry if they offend anyone.
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