dotDavid said:
DracoJesi, although you make relevant points in your lengthy, but almost not-needed argument, the thing about the "violence and wars" is in fact wrong. When Constantine ruled, he "used" Christianity as a symbol of hope and power, not that Christianity itself was violent. You all think that it was the religion that wiped out another "cult", but it was the rulers and how they used it, which wiped them out.
Also, watch the triple posting 😉
First of all, I felt it was needed. Secondly, it wasn't so much an argument as it was a re-telling of history and I assure you, I am correct. Getting to that in a minute.
I was backing up what Forhekset had to say, this very dark area of Christian history, which did happen... is often forgotten, looked the other way.
It was genocide, plain in simple and no amount of sugar-coating will ever change that. If we didn't look the other way with Hitler, why should we do so in this case?
I want to also make it very clear that I never said all Christians are this way, I have stated several times that it is the majority, not the whole.
While it may have been those in charge who are responsible and not "Christianity" per se, it was done in the name of Christianity and to act like the religion has a spot-clean history isn't being very honest.
And yes it was "The Church", but in the tend, does the church not have control over the people? Has the bible not been edited in light of politics?
Christianity is considered an organized religion, In the end, if the church becomes corrupt, the people will as well, because it's "whatever they say goes". I've talked to many Christians to sadly realize that I actually no more about the Bible than they do and most of what they know is just what there reverend tells them.
This isn't true of all Christians, but sadly, again... I have to say the majority...
Did you not look at the link I posted? During this persecution, often referred to as the "Burning Times" it was not simply "The Church" doing all the dirty work... their influence caused many public stoneings and burnings... I can't very well make the claim everybody who was Christian participated, but neither can you make the claim it was just limited to a handful men in power.
I want to make it very clear that I don't hate Christians and that I was merely adding to what had already been said, as many people don't seem to realize the reality of it. And to say Christianity is, and always has been about "Love and Light", is misleading. And frankly, if you look at what Jesus said, and how he is depicted as living, he didn't have a problem with people of other religions and lifestyles, his actions are in direct opposition to what Christianity is shown to teach today. I don't even know if I would call it Christianity.
There are so many denominations that quarrel and claim members of the other, aren't Christian.. and Catholics, despite them being particularly involved with what I've mentioned.. I feel sorry for them..
Technically, Catholicism is Christian but they take so much crap from other denominations, they themselves often consider themselves desperate.
Christianity was always a religion either, it was a movement, Jesus himself, being Jewish.
Being a Christian mean following the words of Christ... After reading his words, surprisingly I find those who follow those words, while following him, don't care for the word "Christian" because what it has become, don't put much faith in the Bible, nor do they go to church... they just can't stand the hypocrisy.
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
- Mohandas Gandhi
That's not to say everyone who follows his word is like this, but when it seems the followers of a religion, don't like associating themselves with said religion... there is an obvious problem.
So what is Christianity anyway? What does it mean and what is the popular meaning today?
there are mega-churches which seat thousands, have basketball courts, swimming pools all kinds of things... now does that mean it's wrong to have churches that size? No, and it all comes down to what your comfortable with, but you have to question whether you've lost focus or not...
Again, what is Christianity, or, what has it become? what has it been for awhile now?
I am not saying every single Christian is like this, nor am I saying there is absolutely nothing to learn from the religion... I think all religions have some truth... even if you have to dig for it.
I was talking about Christianity in general, how could you talk about it otherwise when even Christians can't agree what it is... it is actually, now, an umbrella term... and not all the history associated with it is of pleasant nature. Does that invalidate the religion today? No
But these are serious issues that need to be talked about because the roots of conflict are still deep and misinformation plenty.
For Pagans and Christians to get along, for Christians to realize that what they've been told is misleading and that many of there customs stem from Pagans roots, they are going to have to realize this dark part of there history, They will have to understand were these accusations came from.
It's hard to get along with someone that treats you like Satans advocate. And those who are afraid of Occult groups, wondering what they're up to.. If we weren't concerned about our lives... We'd be much more open about it.
And before I get to the contents of your post
Now, what seems to be a joke to many, how come Christianity is taught all around the world? Note that atheists are a small niche of the world. Christianity covers one third of all religious teachings. Such teachings are so strong, so strong that the immortality of Jesus should be true. It has been brought down from generation to generation, from then to now, and so the facts all line up and show that there is a higher power, but not visible to us.
This post is based on the assumption that "If it's popular, it must be true"... Now, I don't want to go and say the same things I did in my last post because I don't see what that would accomplish.
But what I didn't comment on, how does the spread of a religion over time and geographic location lead to "the facts all line up"? What facts?
I believe in a higher power, that's not what I'm disputing, but all religions claim a higher power of some sort, but by belief in a higher power does not make me Christian... and I do not see how proof of a higher power would validate everything Christianity states.
Anyway, I brought up this post because this is what started this talk of "divide and conquerer" to which Forhekset basically said, that because of the "tactics" that had been used in the past (and present, but he didn't say that.. I did) that those numbers aren't really accurate when it comes to calculating "true" flowers and that many of those only pose as Christian, for safety.
I can tell you that many still do this today, especially in parts of the world were, as I said... people are manipulated being given what they need just to survive in exchange for conversion.
Allot of the Pagan population, even here in the states, aren't out of the closet yet.
Anyway, I replied and tried to explain the situation.
Some of it was in about what had been said, and other parts were in anticipation of another reply from Forhekset. I didn't want to bother him with a PM. I honestly didn't think it would have been a problem but now in retrospect, I think I should have been more clear and for that I apologize.
Now, on to your post in particular, which looking back It seems I've already addressed, but let's look at this part :
When Constantine ruled, he "used" Christianity as a symbol of hope and power, not that Christianity itself was violent. You all think that it was the religion that wiped out another "cult", but it was the rulers and how they used it, which wiped them out.
Quotations aside (and noted), the part I have colored here worries me. I don't recall comparing Paganism to a cult. I did say many people accuse it of being a cult (in the brainwashing sense) to which I commented that people don't generally understand what a cult is.
Christianity is a cult. All religions are, it is a pre-cursor to religion. It's a gathering of like-minded people that may have an organizational structure to some degree but not a very rigid structure that is set in stone that defines it.
Paganism is spiritual but it is an umbrella term of many paths so ok, technically, you can't call it a religion, but psychologically, your word choice is interesting.. Do you see Paganism as just another "cult"?
I've already responded that your right, it wasn't technically the concept of Christianity but it was Christians in general at the time, not just rulers, even though they started it. I hope I've cleared that up.
I'm familiar with the story of Constantine, who's army was failing and then all of the sudden, he saw a blazing cross in the sky and then converted, praying to the Christian God for victory and inspiring his troops.... Yes I get the point your trying to make, however...
This is just one incidence of "possible" political implications but it was not the event I was referencing... That is an example of a ruler only. My example is much different... I am talking about the church committing genocide using a grass-roots Christian movement.
It wasn't just the rulers with blood on their hands.
I also, want to say that this doesn't mean Christianity can't provide light, hope and enlightenment but you can't ignore history.
If you want to understand today, you have to search yesterday. ~Pearl Buck
