Libertarians vs the Other Guys

MXrider13

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Anyone else think there needs to be more Libertarians in Office than the Other Republicans and Democrats. Also by Libertarians I mean by views, not by party. So Ron Paul, Rand Paul, even some what Ralph Nader( he is technically a Left Libertarian).
My views are Right Leaning Libertarian. I believe in a Free Market, Minarchism Society, where the Federal and State Governments has very little power of Just military, building roads, Fire Fighters, and Police.

I personally Don't like a lot of the other polictians in the Repulbican and Democrat parties. So far all both parties do is spend, declare war and give out hand outs(Yes Republicans give out hand outs as well). I believe America needs to end the Federal Reserve and move to a more Libertarian Government.

What do you think?
 
Ron Paul is not a libertarian. Rand Paul is DEFINITELY not a libertarian. Ralph Nader is a great libertarian, though. I agree that there need to be more genuine libertarians in office. Ron Paul is not a libertarian, though.

I consider myself a democratic socialist. Libertarianism is entirely a social philosophy. Economics have nothing to do with libertarianism at all.
 
Ron Paul is pretty libertarian for america. Of course, Mussolini would be considered a slightly right democrat here.
 
Snobothehobo said:
Ron Paul is not a libertarian. Rand Paul is DEFINITELY not a libertarian. Ralph Nader is a great libertarian, though. I agree that there need to be more genuine libertarians in office. Ron Paul is not a libertarian, though.

I consider myself a democratic socialist. Libertarianism is entirely a social philosophy. Economics have nothing to do with libertarianism at all.


Well in American Libertarianism Ron Paul is, American Libertarians are more of Anarcho Capitalists and Minarchists, are Libertarians are like Murray Rothbard, Milton Friedman, and to some extent Thomas Jefferson(maybe not socially). Economics are a part of Libertarianism, they are a party of every politcal ideal, you can just have a social political Philosophy.<br /><br />-- 30 Mar 2011, 20:29 --<br /><br />
Gimgak said:
Ron Paul is pretty libertarian for america. Of course, Mussolini would be considered a slightly right democrat here.

Yeah or a Republican.
 
Right. You don't have to be right-wing to be a libertarian, though. You can be a libertarian leftist. Libertarian leftists are actually more libertarian in my opinion because right-wing libertarians support tyranny for the rich over the poor. The idea of transferring the wealth from the poor to the rich (which happens quite often in the USA) is, in my opinion, fascist.
 
Snobothehobo said:
Right. You don't have to be right-wing to be a libertarian, though. You can be a libertarian leftist. Libertarian leftists are actually more libertarian in my opinion because right-wing libertarians support tyranny for the rich over the poor. The idea of transferring the wealth from the poor to the rich (which happens quite often in the USA) is, in my opinion, fascist.
A lot of America's policies are borderline fascist. I view myself as socially libertarian, slightly to the left. It's a shame libertarian leftists are assumed communists when the actual "communists" are Authoritarians.
 
Snobothehobo said:
Right. You don't have to be right-wing to be a libertarian, though. You can be a libertarian leftist. Libertarian leftists are actually more libertarian in my opinion because right-wing libertarians support tyranny for the rich over the poor. The idea of transferring the wealth from the poor to the rich (which happens quite often in the USA) is, in my opinion, fascist.

Thats not libertarianism thats Neoconservativism. In a free Market Anyone would have the abillity to become rich and there would be more Charities to help the poor. The wealth will go to who ever wants to be wealthy, not just the rich. If a poor person wants to get rich under a Free Market, he can sell drugs on the street, start any business he wants since there are no more government regulations.

What you discribed is Neoconism or Socialism for Rich people.<br /><br />-- 01 Apr 2011, 12:34 --<br /><br />
Gimgak said:
Snobothehobo said:
Right. You don't have to be right-wing to be a libertarian, though. You can be a libertarian leftist. Libertarian leftists are actually more libertarian in my opinion because right-wing libertarians support tyranny for the rich over the poor. The idea of transferring the wealth from the poor to the rich (which happens quite often in the USA) is, in my opinion, fascist.
A lot of America's policies are borderline fascist. I view myself as socially libertarian, slightly to the left. It's a shame libertarian leftists are assumed communists when the actual "communists" are Authoritarians.

I never heard of a Libertarian leftest being called a communist before, usually here in Florida all Libertarians get called Anarchists, right or left and both parties hate them.
 
Search for Snobo and communist and you'll see it's common, or at least was back when cosmic was here 😛. Anarchists are also ruined by stupid stereotypes. The "im a 13 year old loser who has no friends no rules yeah im bad ass!!" is not a real anarchist, that's called an idiot. Sadly, anarchy is a perfect ideal that will never work due to human nature, just like communism.
 
Gimgak said:
Search for Snobo and communist and you'll see it's common, or at least was back when cosmic was here 😛. Anarchists are also ruined by stupid stereotypes. The "im a 13 year old loser who has no friends no rules yeah im bad ass!!" is not a real anarchist, that's called an idiot. Sadly, anarchy is a perfect ideal that will never work due to human nature, just like communism.

I agree Anarchy is a Utopia that can never exist on Earth. I think we can get close though with Minarchism.
 
MXrider13 said:
Snobothehobo said:
Right. You don't have to be right-wing to be a libertarian, though. You can be a libertarian leftist. Libertarian leftists are actually more libertarian in my opinion because right-wing libertarians support tyranny for the rich over the poor. The idea of transferring the wealth from the poor to the rich (which happens quite often in the USA) is, in my opinion, fascist.

Thats not libertarianism thats Neoconservativism. In a free Market Anyone would have the abillity to become rich and there would be more Charities to help the poor. The wealth will go to who ever wants to be wealthy, not just the rich. If a poor person wants to get rich under a Free Market, he can sell drugs on the street, start any business he wants since there are no more government regulations.

What you discribed is Neoconism or Socialism for Rich people.
A "free" market without regulation does exactly what I said; it transfers wealth from the poor to the rich. The rich will always find a way to exploit capitalism to steal from the poor.

Oh, and anybody to the left of Strom Thurmond was a communist according to Cosmic, Gimgak. 😉
 
Snobothehobo said:
MXrider13 said:
Snobothehobo said:
Right. You don't have to be right-wing to be a libertarian, though. You can be a libertarian leftist. Libertarian leftists are actually more libertarian in my opinion because right-wing libertarians support tyranny for the rich over the poor. The idea of transferring the wealth from the poor to the rich (which happens quite often in the USA) is, in my opinion, fascist.

Thats not libertarianism thats Neoconservativism. In a free Market Anyone would have the abillity to become rich and there would be more Charities to help the poor. The wealth will go to who ever wants to be wealthy, not just the rich. If a poor person wants to get rich under a Free Market, he can sell drugs on the street, start any business he wants since there are no more government regulations.

What you discribed is Neoconism or Socialism for Rich people.
A "free" market without regulation does exactly what I said; it transfers wealth from the poor to the rich. The rich will always find a way to exploit capitalism to steal from the poor.

Oh, and anybody to the left of Strom Thurmond was a communist according to Cosmic, Gimgak. 😉

No under a free market small business will be able to grow large as well, so people can make money and there will be less poor. What happens now under Neoconism is the government puts few regulations on large corporations, but puts a lot of regulations on small business to make sure the small business don't become competition, however under a free market the small business won't have as much competition, so they can grow large and poor will have the poor will have the ability to start a business.

Right now I can't even put fertalizer for my lawn care business, because the law says I have to work for another company for 2 years as a fertilzer guy and I have to pay $2000 for a license to do so, yet I am allowed to legally put my own fertalizer on my own home but not as part of my lawn care service.

Yet a large company like tru green has no regulation, only the small business. Without regulation True green would have more competion many lower prices and more affordable lawn care and might be out of business already.
 
All businesses cheat. CEOs can simply not be trusted to make responsible decisions because they all eventually succumb to greed. I support the idea of cooperatives.
 
Snobothehobo said:
All businesses cheat. CEOs can simply not be trusted to make responsible decisions because they all eventually succumb to greed. I support the idea of cooperatives.

Most business don't cheat, just the large ones that support politicans. Many small business owners I know don't and most wish we had a Free Market. What the big business owners do is pay a politicans to get regulations passed on small business to have less competition.

If we had a Free Market there would be more competition, so the big business would have trouble and make less profit, but more people could make profit under a free market.

I trust small business owners a lot more than anyone else. Especially way more than Politicans.
 
MXrider13 said:
I believe America needs to end the Federal Reserve and move to a more Libertarian Government.

As a Keynesian, I would really like to hear these arguments a bit more. Criticize about whatever stimulus or whatnot, but what were you going to do instead? After all, the market will heal itself, eventually, right? That said, "in the long run, we are all dead."

As for Ron Paul, I generally don't agree with his views since I'm a Keynesian and I'm not really buying into him being all Juche and stuff. After all, if he decides to get out of NAFTA, then so be it. Then he can't enforce free trade with Canada or Mexico. If he gets out of the UN, then no one else will back the Americans when they go off fighting whereever.

Libertairianism and Authoritarianism is the same stuff at the end of the day. Most of it is words, and words only. At least, that's the case in America. Americans are using those words as "Good Guy" vs. "Bad Guy," and it's kind of laughable, at best. There are a few idiots in America trying to get that social conservative vote just by talking. To be fair, they're pretty damn ridiculously dumb. Sarah Palin is the obvious one but also consider the Christine O'Donnells, Michelle Bachmanns, or the Glenn Becks in this world. Because, after all, America's Founding Fathers abolished slavery and apparently Mr. Obama's a racist. Let's not get into abortion or gay marriage either, as realistically, there's no way those guys trying to get the social conservative vote (in abortion and whatnot) will actually make it illegal. They're just trying to get the social conservative vote.

That said, look at the Democratic Party. You'd think with people as laughable as those said on one side there'd be more people voting the other side, but the Democrats in general are just not taking advantage of their stupidity nor are they even trying to play hardball. Additionally, neither party really has a plan. At least get a budget. Although Michelle Obama has my deepest respects, Barack needs to start playing hardball and actually make Americans realize that they're going to really have to change to really get moving again. That said, like how I pity Bush I, I pity Barack as well, since both presidents really inherited quite a problem. The last few months do in fact show some optimism, which benefits guys like Canada, since the United States is still our #1 customer (and the only real reason why Canada generally makes a trade surplus).

Not all CEOs are liars/cheats, though. Consider Steve Ellis of Chipotle. Someone in America who actually installs solar panels and sells local, let alone organic foods in his stores.

The one thing the United States needs is a true fiscal conservative, like a Paul Martin (Liberal Party of Canada) or a David Cameron (UK Conservative Party). Generally speaking, as much as the Tea Partyists is lobbying to reduce the deficit (and generally speaking, I do actually agree with them), they're not really getting in the guys who can do it. You need both tax increases and spending cuts to get the deficit down. I know. Tax is a bad word, but you have to do it when the rates are unsustainably low. What else are you going to do? Cut in an already underfunded education system? Well, you could've ended the Bush Tax Cuts or even those subsidies to corporate corn or oil. That would fix at least 1/3 of your problem right there. Although it would be nice, you can't have a big tax cut and a big military (which explains why I pity Bush I).

Though the one threat to democracy (this can easily apply anywhere, not just America) is when you get old-money folk donating a hell of a lot of their money to parties. Then, the ones receiving the money essentially change their beliefs to whatever the donators want. Then, when an ordinary Joe like you talks to your local member of the house (Congressman or Member of Parliament), he/she won't listen to you cause you didn't donate $1,000,000 to him/her. It's just like bribing. Consider the Koch brothers in the United States.
 
el canadiano said:
MXrider13 said:
I believe America needs to end the Federal Reserve and move to a more Libertarian Government.

As a Keynesian, I would really like to hear these arguments a bit more. Criticize about whatever stimulus or whatnot, but what were you going to do instead? After all, the market will heal itself, eventually, right? That said, "in the long run, we are all dead."

As for Ron Paul, I generally don't agree with his views since I'm a Keynesian and I'm not really buying into him being all Juche and stuff. After all, if he decides to get out of NAFTA, then so be it. Then he can't enforce free trade with Canada or Mexico. If he gets out of the UN, then no one else will back the Americans when they go off fighting whereever.

Libertairianism and Authoritarianism is the same stuff at the end of the day. Most of it is words, and words only. At least, that's the case in America. Americans are using those words as "Good Guy" vs. "Bad Guy," and it's kind of laughable, at best. There are a few idiots in America trying to get that social conservative vote just by talking. To be fair, they're pretty damn ridiculously dumb. Sarah Palin is the obvious one but also consider the Christine O'Donnells, Michelle Bachmanns, or the Glenn Becks in this world. Because, after all, America's Founding Fathers abolished slavery and apparently Mr. Obama's a racist. Let's not get into abortion or gay marriage either, as realistically, there's no way those guys trying to get the social conservative vote (in abortion and whatnot) will actually make it illegal. They're just trying to get the social conservative vote.

That said, look at the Democratic Party. You'd think with people as laughable as those said on one side there'd be more people voting the other side, but the Democrats in general are just not taking advantage of their stupidity nor are they even trying to play hardball. Additionally, neither party really has a plan. At least get a budget. Although Michelle Obama has my deepest respects, Barack needs to start playing hardball and actually make Americans realize that they're going to really have to change to really get moving again. That said, like how I pity Bush I, I pity Barack as well, since both presidents really inherited quite a problem. The last few months do in fact show some optimism, which benefits guys like Canada, since the United States is still our #1 customer (and the only real reason why Canada generally makes a trade surplus).

Not all CEOs are liars/cheats, though. Consider Steve Ellis of Chipotle. Someone in America who actually installs solar panels and sells local, let alone organic foods in his stores.

The one thing the United States needs is a true fiscal conservative, like a Paul Martin (Liberal Party of Canada) or a David Cameron (UK Conservative Party). Generally speaking, as much as the Tea Partyists is lobbying to reduce the deficit (and generally speaking, I do actually agree with them), they're not really getting in the guys who can do it. You need both tax increases and spending cuts to get the deficit down. I know. Tax is a bad word, but you have to do it when the rates are unsustainably low. What else are you going to do? Cut in an already underfunded education system? Well, you could've ended the Bush Tax Cuts or even those subsidies to corporate corn or oil. That would fix at least 1/3 of your problem right there. Although it would be nice, you can't have a big tax cut and a big military (which explains why I pity Bush I).

Though the one threat to democracy (this can easily apply anywhere, not just America) is when you get old-money folk donating a hell of a lot of their money to parties. Then, the ones receiving the money essentially change their beliefs to whatever the donators want. Then, when an ordinary Joe like you talks to your local member of the house (Congressman or Member of Parliament), he/she won't listen to you cause you didn't donate $1,000,000 to him/her. It's just like bribing. Consider the Koch brothers in the United States.
When it comes to budget cuts, we need to cut a LOT! The military, social programs everything! The Tea Party Republicans only want to go 1/8th of the way, not make mass cuts. It seems like only the Libertarians want to make mass budget cuts. We also need to leave Iraq and Afgan and this Libya crap. We definitely need to cut military spending, It seems like only the Libertarians want to cut spending.

We need to cut the Federal Reserve, because what the Federal Reserve does it allows the government to print any amount of money they want, and spend it weather they have it or not, its the worlds largest Credit card. End that and the government won't have there trillons to blow on wars, social programs, etc any more.

Thats what we need to do.
 
MXrider13 said:
When it comes to budget cuts, we need to cut a LOT! The military, social programs everything! The Tea Party Republicans only want to go 1/8th of the way, not make mass cuts. It seems like only the Libertarians want to make mass budget cuts. We also need to leave Iraq and Afgan and this Libya crap. We definitely need to cut military spending, It seems like only the Libertarians want to cut spending.

We need to cut the Federal Reserve, because what the Federal Reserve does it allows the government to print any amount of money they want, and spend it weather they have it or not, its the worlds largest Credit card. End that and the government won't have there trillons to blow on wars, social programs, etc any more.

Thats what we need to do.

They're getting out of Iraq (and I agree there), but it's not necessarily Libertarians who want to cut spending. That's more fiscal conservatism than libertarianism. The U.S. (like Canada) isn't doing that much in Libya, but they're kinda cooperating with the Europeans. It's more in their interests than the Americans or Canadians, since the US (and Canada) don't really get much of their oil from there.

That said, your interpretation of the Federal Reserve is incorrect. The reason for the federal reserve (or any other central bank, for that matter) is to regulate the cashflow in the country it is in. Also, contrary to many peoples' beliefs, it is actually independent from the Government. The man with the power is not Obama, but it is in fact Ben Bernanke. Don't get me wrong, they do discuss (it's not like they don't know each other or anything), but Obama, nor does anyone in Congress, has the power to go "Print out $4 trillion more dollars."

Besides, Bernanke doesn't even have to do that, considering all he has to do is add numbers to the system. It's not like most of today's dollars is in physical bills and coins, after all. It's just numbers in a (hopefully) secure data system.

But you know, you also watch what you cut. It's not like kids will still get as good of an education if the public (well, public is more or less the same as the government) spends $1000 less on a child. Do realize if you want society to have something, you have to pay for it. By the way, this last argument is not one for any ideology.
 
el canadiano said:
MXrider13 said:
When it comes to budget cuts, we need to cut a LOT! The military, social programs everything! The Tea Party Republicans only want to go 1/8th of the way, not make mass cuts. It seems like only the Libertarians want to make mass budget cuts. We also need to leave Iraq and Afgan and this Libya crap. We definitely need to cut military spending, It seems like only the Libertarians want to cut spending.

We need to cut the Federal Reserve, because what the Federal Reserve does it allows the government to print any amount of money they want, and spend it weather they have it or not, its the worlds largest Credit card. End that and the government won't have there trillons to blow on wars, social programs, etc any more.

Thats what we need to do.

They're getting out of Iraq (and I agree there), but it's not necessarily Libertarians who want to cut spending. That's more fiscal conservatism than libertarianism. The U.S. (like Canada) isn't doing that much in Libya, but they're kinda cooperating with the Europeans. It's more in their interests than the Americans or Canadians, since the US (and Canada) don't really get much of their oil from there.

That said, your interpretation of the Federal Reserve is incorrect. The reason for the federal reserve (or any other central bank, for that matter) is to regulate the cashflow in the country it is in. Also, contrary to many peoples' beliefs, it is actually independent from the Government. The man with the power is not Obama, but it is in fact Ben Bernanke. Don't get me wrong, they do discuss (it's not like they don't know each other or anything), but Obama, nor does anyone in Congress, has the power to go "Print out $4 trillion more dollars."

Besides, Bernanke doesn't even have to do that, considering all he has to do is add numbers to the system. It's not like most of today's dollars is in physical bills and coins, after all. It's just numbers in a (hopefully) secure data system.

But you know, you also watch what you cut. It's not like kids will still get as good of an education if the public (well, public is more or less the same as the government) spends $1000 less on a child. Do realize if you want society to have something, you have to pay for it. By the way, this last argument is not one for any ideology.

THE FEDERAL RESERVE DOES NOT REGULATE CASH FLOW! It is the worlds largest credit card, the government uses it to print money we don't have to spend. The heads of the Fed let the government borrow money(today mostly digital) and allow them to use it like a credit payment or a loan.

Also with Libya we had no need to go fire all of the missiles we did, and all of the Airstrikes. We have no need to be there our any of our bases in other countries.
 
I view myself as a Right-wing Libertarian. I'm not too strong with Libertarianism, though. For example, I'm pro-Life, against gay marriage, etc.
 
Nuke said:
I view myself as a Right-wing Libertarian. I'm not too strong with Libertarianism, though. For example, I'm pro-Life, against gay marriage, etc.
Pro Life I can kind of understand, but why gay marriage? Whats wrong with Gays marrying?
 
Because if you change the definition of a word for "equality", you void its meaning. In other words, then the Left will be like "OMG WE SHOULD MARRY OUR PETZ" and stupid stuff like that.

It's ridiculous. I used to think it was k, though.
 
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