So recently there have been public shops, moreso cake shops than anything, denying service to gay couples because it goes against their religion. Should businesses be allowed to do this, or should they not open their doors to the public if they plan on picking and choosing their customers?
Should businesses be allowed to deny service to gay couples?
- Thread starter Thomasss
- Start date
No they should not.
However, the problem herein lies with how much do you let government deal in private business affairs.
Yes, is it the law? Totally. But the question is how intrusive can the government be without pissing off small business owners?
I think what you are referring to is the case in Kentucky with the city clerk denying gays marriage certificates. In that case its a matter of separation of church and state which she should be in jail, as she is. In a government job you do what you're told. There should be no religious views involved because it is a government job.
However, the problem herein lies with how much do you let government deal in private business affairs.
Yes, is it the law? Totally. But the question is how intrusive can the government be without pissing off small business owners?
I think what you are referring to is the case in Kentucky with the city clerk denying gays marriage certificates. In that case its a matter of separation of church and state which she should be in jail, as she is. In a government job you do what you're told. There should be no religious views involved because it is a government job.
Kino said:
I was going off of the cases where businesses denied making cakes for gay couples, however the whole Kentucky thing is a perfect example of this, and I am glad she is sitting in jail. It's a government job, you cannot pick and choose what you can and won't do, and it is not her moral obligation to force her religion onto anyone else. What most people in this world do not get are the ideals of separation of church and state, and I am glad the judge was one to see that and enforce the laws.
That and we were paying her to discriminate, I mean come on, her stupid husband cannot even see that.
Jupiter Zero said:
I agree with that, but a lot of people in the South are very passionate when it come to their religion. Therefore sometimes causing this gap between what is morally good and to them what is morally bad.
LunarSouls said:
Her husband is stupid, and the Republican candidates that are trying to back her up are even more stupid.
With private businesses, that's hard to manage, especially in the South. I think with the courts nowadays you can win discrimination suits quite easily.
If you're running a business open to the public, you should be open to the public. You don't get to pick and choose who you serve. Now, if you want to run a "Straight Only Club" or a "Men Only Bar" and limit your potential customers, your business needs to be named and advertised appropriately.
"Betty's Cake Shop" doesn't get to pick and choose.
"Betty's Cake Shop" doesn't get to pick and choose.
Nope, if they are public they should serve everyone. I agree that if they want to advertise and clearly state on their business that they don't serve homosexuals, etc, then that's fine too because they are allowed too and it's their right. If they did that I would be fine with it because it's clearly noted and they are going about it the right way. For some, it's not even their religion it's just that they personally don't agree or like whatever group they don't want to serve.
If any business denies a large portion of specific people from purchasing their service or product must be ignorant or fairly incompetent to run a business. The point of running a small business is to make money; this demographic is growing rapidly; and it's definitely a great time to stick your hands into their pockets.
Gay people are people too, everyone deserves equal rights no matter their race; creed; or color.
Gay people are people too, everyone deserves equal rights no matter their race; creed; or color.
Unfortunately, businesses have the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason. That's been an owner's right since I can remember. Is it right for them to do that? No, not really. But, due to some people's beliefs, it can be determined that gay couples in a restaurant or business is "offensive." So, because of that business owners turn away gay couples. Again, as stated in the other thread about same sex marriage, this is, technically, discrimination. Sadly, there's nothing anyone can do about it.
Thomasss said:
I'm assuming we're talking about in reference to businesses in the United States. My answer is no, businesses should NOT be allowed to refuse service to someone based on their sexual orientation.
For those that say yes they should be allowed to deny service to anyone they want - let's look at their standpoint for a second...
In the Constitution, Article 1 - the first amendment states:
Where does Freedom of Speech end? Is a person expressing their opinion limited in a business establishment? Short answer... yes. At the same time, I don't agree that people should judge or criticize another person based on the Bible; especially when they are guilty of other things that God does not allow e.g. divorce (Malachi 2:16), eat shrimp, crab, lobster, etc (Deuteronomy 14:9-10), women who wear sexy clothes (1 Timothy 2:9), there are so many things... all of which can be contradicted by the same text just a different chapter.
At the end of the day... the laws are there to keep order in our society... we must learn to live amongst each other in peace the best we can.
I'm just saying... if we start letting businesses deny services to people based on their sexual orientation... who is to say that businesses can't deny services to people based on their race? If the law is going to be enforced based on one part it should be enforced on another.
You need to consider that each business is run by different kinds of people. Not everyone will appreciate a way a business is ran due to a whole lot of things. This included. While I support gay marriage and am bi myself I still respect the decisions made by business owners no matter how good or bad they are.
I think it depends on the type of service. If you're selling a product, I don't think you have any excuse in not selling it to a gay couple. A cafe shouldn't be able to refuse service to gay couples. But a photographer shouldn't be required to photograph a gay wedding, an islamic wedding, or a wedding between two members of a biker gang. 😛 I think it comes down to the difference between a product and a service.
cmoneyspinner
Acquaintance
* *
It's your business. You run it your way.
If you don't stay in business because you refused to compromise your religious beliefs, you lose customers, and you go out of business … it was still your business and you ran it your way.
You build your business with your blood, sweat and tears. Nobody should tell you how to run it. You take full responsibility for all the business decisions you make and you accept the consequences.
Let's say you don't want to serve blacks or Mexicans at your restaurant. Your non-black and non-Mexican customers might decide that they won't eat your restaurant. They're taking a stand against you based on their principles. You just lost a customer base you refused to serve and the customer base you were serving. Yes. You just lost your business. But nobody told you how to run it!
* Contrast and Comparison. *
If you refuse to make wedding cakes for gay customers, your non-gay customers may decide to continue to support your business, because they stand with you on your religious beliefs. So your potential gay customers take you to court for refusing to bake them a cake. The courts can make a decision regarding the matter and decide in favor of the customers who complained. If you are a person rooted in your religious beliefs, you're going to stand where you stand and you are still not going to make that cake! Do you have to close the doors of business? Probably. However, you lost your business because a court tried to tell you how to run it. But in the end, you made the final decision that nobody would tell you how to run it.
Is the matter settled? Not sure? Your loyal customers may still want to bring you their business. They might find a way to work around it. People can be very resourceful.
You make your decisions regarding how to run your business.
- But it's really your customers who decide if you stay in business.
Moral of the story: Come what may, people usually stay true to their hearts.
cmoneyspinner
Acquaintance
* *
It's not about crime. It's about causing the business owner a lot of legal expenses, using up their vital resources like time and money, hopefully causing bad publicity for the business, challenging the owner's right to his/her religious freedom, and possibly wreaking enough financial havoc to result in the business having to shut down. It's not about crime. It's more like harassment and trying to force or enforce "your way" on another person, only using the court system to do it “legally”.
Am I being too cynical? I just sometimes think people misuse our courts of law. It's just a thought.
D
Deleted member 5665
In reality discrimination works both ways not one. As for an example.
If you have a Christian family business and they refuse to serve you due to their religious beliefs. You either 1 sue them because they disagree with you or 2 accept their view points and find another place to go.
Real question is what is the mature thing to do? Live and let live not everyone is going to agree on the same things. That doesn't mean we should hate each other or deny other peoples right to practice what they believe.
Here is also a good question though are you more offended by someone that disagrees with you or this?
In my opinion I rather disagree and live and let live than be thrown off a building, but hey to each their own.
If you have a Christian family business and they refuse to serve you due to their religious beliefs. You either 1 sue them because they disagree with you or 2 accept their view points and find another place to go.
Real question is what is the mature thing to do? Live and let live not everyone is going to agree on the same things. That doesn't mean we should hate each other or deny other peoples right to practice what they believe.
Here is also a good question though are you more offended by someone that disagrees with you or this?
In my opinion I rather disagree and live and let live than be thrown off a building, but hey to each their own.
This is a really nice point. I would say no to general bans unless you are aiming at straight only clubs, but in general, nobody should be denied access to a public place unless it goes against certain rules of the place. You know, some restaurants require you to wear formal wear, so you cant just show up in shorts and tank-top, but limiting people on any other reason is just not right. Although, there are cases where gay people go to places to provoke people. If this is the case, I would try to find a way to work with it. Perhaps a general rule. No kissing allowed inside. It might sound stupid, but hey, it might be a solution. You don't limit anyone on coming to you, but you might stop certain issues by doing such.
I was once an entrepreneur when I had my small boutique. A business is supposed to be universal with customers because the focus is the profit and not the kind of customers. If you are particular with customers and you don't like to serve gay couples then that's your choice but you have to find a subtle way to avoid them (gay couples). Discrimination is a hot issue in this modern time and your business may suffer if discrimination is proven.
Last year there was this 5-star hotel which discriminated a senior citizen who happened to be a popular lawyer. Hotel Sofitel was sued by the lawyer and eventually the hotel gave up and settled the case amicably. The lawyer's demand was a free "senior's night" every year in the hotel's ballroom. I know it because we were in the buffet restaurant during the first senior's night.
Last year there was this 5-star hotel which discriminated a senior citizen who happened to be a popular lawyer. Hotel Sofitel was sued by the lawyer and eventually the hotel gave up and settled the case amicably. The lawyer's demand was a free "senior's night" every year in the hotel's ballroom. I know it because we were in the buffet restaurant during the first senior's night.
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