Macro Evolution ---> Wheres The Evidence

[Saruman]

...Cont

Quoted from Berkley EDU

Evolution is observable and testable. The misconception here is that science is limited to controlled experiments that are conducted in laboratories by people in white lab coats. Actually, much of science is accomplished by gathering evidence from the real world and inferring how things work. Astronomers cannot hold stars in their hands and geologists cannot go back in time, but in both cases scientists can learn a great deal by using multiple lines of evidence to make valid and useful inferences about their objects of study. The same is true of the study of the evolutionary history of life on Earth, and as a matter of fact, many mechanisms of evolution are studied through direct experimentation as in more familiar sciences.

Good god bro, lol its ok...why do you hold such strong faith in quoted material.

All I'm asking for is evidence.

Where is the evidence.

I'm sure the quotee's are referring to micro-evolution as opposed to M.E.

Observable and Testable

Show me a test that I can observe involving the naturalistic manipulation of dna.

many mechanisms of evolution are studied through direct experimentation

by people in white lab coats

I'm sure we can pretty much study anything through direct experimentation with people in white lab coats...

 

[katy perry is hot]

Check out : http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html

Anyway, the greatest evidence for macroevolution is the existence of vestigial structures. What are Vestigial structures? They're anatomical structures of organisms in a species which are considered to have lost most or all of their ORIGINAL function through evolution.

There's tons of evidences for evolution, micro and macro. May I ask you do you believe in Creationism as an alternative? If so, dinosaurs were running around 5,000 years ago? How come the Mesopotamian and other ancient civilizations didn't mention battling dinosaurs for their food?

 

[Saruman]

Check out : http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html

I've read that and many other sites and papers, neither of which proves M.E.
We have no proof of transitional forms.
I'm not saying they don't exist, its just that we haven't found any.
We have individual species only.

There's tons of evidences for evolution, micro and macro.

nope, only micro

May I ask you do you believe in Creationism as an alternative? If so, dinosaurs were running around 5,000 years ago?

Why does the earth have to be 5k-6k yrs old?
Why can't it be trillions or even longer?
Why couldn't this planet have always of existed?
I love my open mind, cause if it were narrow, I'd trip and stumble over those around me.

How come the Mesopotamian and other ancient civilizations didn't mention battling dinosaurs for their food?

They did, and in a couple hours I'm going to upload a report I did in class on this exact same topic...

Stay tuned...

~biggrin~

 

[katy perry is hot]

Sorry to hear none of that answers your questions. I think since you really don't want to go with the masses and believe evolution you choose to ignore it and come up with something else.

FYI- Dinosaurs were around roughly 230 million years ago, people weren't around 230 million years ago and written language didn't even exist then my friend. Your point is invalid and frankly about you having a report saying people competed with dinosaurs for food is false.

 

[Saruman]

Check out : http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html

Anyway, the greatest evidence for macroevolution is the existence of vestigial structures. What are Vestigial structures? They're anatomical structures of organisms in a species which are considered to have lost most or all of their ORIGINAL function through evolution.

There's tons of evidences for evolution, micro and macro. May I ask you do you believe in Creationism as an alternative? If so, dinosaurs were running around 5,000 years ago? How come the Mesopotamian and other ancient civilizations didn't mention battling dinosaurs for their food?

oh, ok

 

[Howard_Crane]

Owned

 

[Oaerkae]

I think since you really don't want to go with the masses and believe evolution.

Yeah, to follow the "acceptable" theory and join the masses, thats the most logical thing to do ~rolleyes~

I don't think it's good to go with masses either, but you don't have to reject what they say just because they represent the masses. You may not be intentionally doing that, but I'm getting that vibe.

you choose to ignore it and come up with something else.

I haven't come up with anything...just keeping an open mind is all, open to all posibillities.

He is giving you evidence, and you seem to be rejecting it. -😉-

Dinosaurs were around roughly 230 million years ago, people weren't around 230 million years ago and written language didn't even exist then my friend.

You know that for a fact, or just believed what was told to you?

Do you know it isn't a fact. Most of us here are not paleontologists, so we can't know with 100% certainly that anything we hear is correct. But I kinda doubt that hundreds of scientists are wrong unless they are all using flawed methods. But in all honesty, it's awful cynical to always believe something is wrong, don't confuse that with open-mindedness, okay....

I'm going to delete what isn't important, so people wouldn't faze in and out of concentration. -razz-
I will delete all of the definitions, briefings, etc., because I already know these things, and they are just definitions of words and scientific ideas and theories, and my main mission here is to debate your opinions and ideas, not scientific or grammatical definitions. Although I could do that if you ask me to be objective.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

My View
- I believe God is responsible for all of creation.
- I believe in Intelligent Design.
- I don't believe in "Evolution," per-say.
- I highly doubt the earth was created in "6 days" or is "6-7k" years old.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not to disrespect your opinions, but it seems odd to me that a person as skeptical as you are would believe in god, being the one thing that we will probably never prove, and who has so little evidence on his side that it's impossible to even prove his existence by even 1%. I would like you to tell me why you think this way, if you would.

Briefing

Ever since the Anthropic Principle entered the language of science, the case for the universe having the hallmarks of design has become stronger. Its basic properties are uncannily suited for life. Tweak the laws of physics in just about any way and in this universe, at least, life as we know it would not exist. We have a lot of really, really strange coincidences, and all of these coincidences are such, that they make life possible.

Why us?
Why this Universe?

Here's one of my many mottos, "don't always be asking 'why me/us'". Asking that question is to me, kinda dumb. You could ask that about everything in your life. "Why do I have this family?" "Why do I have this mind?" "Why are we the only planet in our solar system to have noticeable life?" These questions are unanswerable without proper equipment, and even then some of them are still unanswerable... for now. You may think it's wise to question the unanswerable things of this world, but sometimes it's more wise to save your thought for things you can answer.

 

[Howard_Crane]

Oh my God... what half-baked nonsense.

Oaerkae: God and evolutionary science are two very different things. To believe that the only things in existence are those we can measure is crazy and only a sign that one has jumped from the frying pan into the fire (from hardline Christianity to Atheism).
But leaving the isms aside; what if there was a part of a person that, if listened to, could show that person many things that cannot be found in a lab? Some people call it intuition, I call it my heart. And there's a few of us out there who feel with their hearts, and some of those people feel an entity or oversoul they choose to call God.
Sure! You can't then put that on some kind of measuring instrument, and then show everyone else "There; that's God right there". But what would the fun be in that?

God is a pretty expansive concept. So before you jump down someone's throat, how about asking "In what way do you believe in God?". We only have one word for something that comes in about 5 different varieties and 1,000,000 variations on those 5 (the swell in that statistic is thanks to the Vedas lawl).

The Anthropic Principal is fascinating. I invented it (of course, someone with a white coat got his name on it before I thought of it). Just think about it... the very fabric of our universe. Think of it as an operating system on a computer. Without an operating system, nothing could really happen on a computer. It's the structure upon which our Firefox and computer games run on.
The Anthropic Principal tells us that if one little thing was different about the operating system the universe uses (gravity, elements etc), then the whole system would crash. Planets wouldn't be round. Humans wont exist because of one thing missing that sustains us.

His question of "why us why here" wasn't just some shot in the dark. There's something deeper behind what he's saying.

 

[Oaerkae]

Oh my God... what half-baked nonsense.

Oaerkae: God and evolutionary science are two very different things. To believe that the only things in existence are those we can measure is crazy and only a sign that one has jumped from the frying pan into the fire (from hardline Christianity to Atheism).
But leaving the isms aside; what if there was a part of a person that, if listened to, could show that person many things that cannot be found in a lab? Some people call it intuition, I call it my heart. And there's a few of us out there who feel with their hearts, and some of those people feel an entity or oversoul they choose to call God.
Sure! You can't then put that on some kind of measuring instrument, and then show everyone else "There; that's God right there". But what would the fun be in that?

*Sigh* You don't get it. I wasn't talking about religion.... And if you didn't notice (which you didn't) I asked why he believed in god and not in evolution. I never said he was wrong to, or that he was hypocritical to, I never even stated an opinion in this topic... I simply asked, why... If you had actually read the post I made before responding to it, maybe you would of figured that out.

I also never said that "the only things in existence are those we can measure", I never hinted that, nor did I said that directly. You really oughta read my post. Maybe if you would use some of the deep thought you put into reading his post and stopped looking at my post as the dry biased post of someone who doesn't believe in anything else.

Another thing, people like yourself always say things like "God is something you can only believe with your soul", this statement is as old as religion itself. It's funny though, no one ever think this way about science, you seem to be biased toward science because you can't prove it, then you say god exists. What you don't understand is that God and science are simular, science would be god's creation, (saying both are true) science is the "how it happened" of our universe, while the God could be said to be the "what" created our universe. So saying that it's somehow different, that is half-baked my man.

And to your response, I didn't ask you, I asked him, he is the one who's answer I want because he is the person who is being incredibly cynical of Macroevolution, and who says that he wants proof even though he has it right in front of him. If he wants proof deeper than that, proof into the very depths of creation and why it happened, what it means, it's essence, etc., I can't answer, because I don't know.

God is a pretty expansive concept. So before you jump down someone's throat, how about asking "In what way do you believe in God?". We only have one word for something that comes in about 5 different varieties and 1,000,000 variations on those 5 (the swell in that statistic is thanks to the Vedas lawl).

And I jumped down his throat didn't I. Asking why he believed God and not evolution was such a punch in the gut.... -roll-

I understand god is expansive, if given the chance I could make a book on this subject, but I don't want to know "In what way", I'm not asking for a deep answer, I simply want to know why. I want a different answer. Something better than the old "soul speak" everyone always gives. There is a difference between what I am asking.

The Anthropic Principal is fascinating. I invented it (of course, someone with a white coat got his name on it before I thought of it). Just think about it... the very fabric of our universe. Think of it as an operating system on a computer. Without an operating system, nothing could really happen on a computer. It's the structure upon which our Firefox and computer games run on.
The Anthropic Principal tells us that if one little thing was different about the operating system the universe uses (gravity, elements etc), then the whole system would crash. Planets wouldn't be round. Humans wont exist because of one thing missing that sustains us.

His question of "why us why here" wasn't just some shot in the dark. There's something deeper behind what he's saying.

My statement was actually not a shot in the dark either, but you didn't think about that though.

I agree, that is an interesting thing, and I have thought about it on occasion. Something like this I think could become an interesting idea for me to incorporate in my book.

 

[Saruman]

He is giving you evidence, and you seem to be rejecting it.

Where?
Where is this evidence you speak of?
Where is the "Observable" naturalistic manipulation and transfer of dna among "seperate" species?

it's awful cynical to always believe something is wrong,

I"m not saying M.E. is wrong, I'm saying...there is absolutely no evidence for the proveness of the theory as factual.

It very well may be correct/factual, but until evidence is provided, all we have are quotes and experiments.

don't confuse that with open-mindedness, okay....

Ok... -roll-

and they are just definitions of words and scientific ideas and theories

They sure are!

Not to disrespect your opinions, but it seems odd to me that a person as skeptical as you are would believe in god, being the one thing that we will probably never prove, and who has so little evidence on his side that it's impossible to even prove his existence by even 1%. I would like you to tell me why you think this way, if you would.

Alright, if you say so...
Though, I'll only share one reason as to why I believe in god's existance...

About 3-4 years ago, I found myself near a stone alter...
..."How I got there?" you say...well I'll tell..
Every morning, about 3-4 years ago, I use to relax in the recliner before work, after having eaten breakfast and fed the animals.
Well this morning, something was different.
I didn't know what though...
So I relaxed in the recliner, I think I had "the simpsons" on or something, anyways...
I wasn't tired, as I have coffee, tea, and a hearty breakfast every morning, so...
I sat in the chair and began to watch whatever I had on playing, and I found myself...
FLOATING!
As in, I was as light as air, and slowly begging to move to an alter, a stone alter, with what appeared to be a lion on it.
There was fog, smoke, or some type of haze, all around, up to a few feet of the ground, if there even was ground.
So I was beginning to move slowly towards this majestic looking lion
However...
In my mind, my consiousness.
Yes, I was still aware ~wink~
What came to my thought, was... "Lamb"
Not "Lion"
But, lamb. You know when you look at a car, you think car, when you look at a bird, you think bird.
Well I was staring at this majestic lion and I thought, lamb.
Like they were one and the same.
And for whatever reason, I knew that this lion, was a sub adult male.
The mane was there, although not to it full splendor,
All it was doing was staring at me, in such an awesomeness.
Then immidiately I was watching tv again!
Its quicker than instataniously,
I was here, then there, then back here again!
God, knows how that happened, haha,
So as I was sitting there with my mind trying to comprehend what had just happened, a thought came to me...
"Jesus is the lamb of God, and the lion of judah"
-bigeyes-

My sister has also been some place where I won't mention here, unless asked for by people here, and allow me to post with her permission.

Satisfied... ~wink~

Here's one of my many mottos, "don't always be asking 'why me/us'".

Oh, um...ok ~rolleyes~

You may think it's wise to question the unanswerable things of this world, but sometimes it's more wise to save your thought for things you can answer.

So sometimes its unwise to think of things you can't answer? ~rolleyes~

The Anthropic Principal is fascinating.

I've studied it inside and out -D-

His question of "why us why here" wasn't just some shot in the dark. There's something deeper behind what he's saying.

I think we're related somehow... ~cheesey_grin~

I'm going to start another topic soon about something I think you'll be interested in Howard, and would like Oaerkae, and others to participate in once its up.

*Sigh* You don't get it. I wasn't talking about religion.... And if you didn't notice (which you didn't) I asked why he believed in god and not in evolution.

I hope you were intrigued by my reasoning behind my belief.

I believe, belief is personal, however, I want to share mine with others.

you seem to be biased toward science because you can't prove it, then you say god exists.

They both take some bit of faith...don't they?

who says that he wants proof even though he has it right in front of him.

I do?
Maybe someone stole it, because I can't find it anywhere...
Do you have it, maybe?

And I jumped down his throat didn't I. Asking why he believed God and not evolution was such a punch in the gut....

I think I gave my reasoning behind both...

I want a different answer. Something better than the old "soul speak" everyone always gives. There is a difference between what I am asking.

I want the same answers as you I'm sure.
Simply for the fact that we are able to percieve ourselves as consiouse beings is a mystery in and of itself.

I agree, that is an interesting thing, and I have thought about it on occasion. Something like this I think could become an interesting idea for me to incorporate in my book.

I'm up for co-authoring if your interested, give me a shout.

 

[Howard_Crane]

Oaerkae: I'm not trying to be an asshole here btw.


As for your "soul speak" or whatever you call it... what's the fucking problem? It's me who believes it, you don't have to.

I've had experiences in my life, nothing like what Saruman has experienced, but big enough to tell me definitively that there is a higher order. A higher existence.
If I were to try and use that as scientific evidence to convince you that God exists, you'd just pass it off as delusion or inadequate evidence. Even though I had witnesses at times.

So I don't want to put my heart on the line, just so you can have some 'evidence' you can poke at with some sticks and put in a test tube. It might be a shock to you, but having people try to convince you that you didn't experience/see what you damn well know you experienced/saw is VERY disconcerting and insulting.

I agree. There's a science of God. God's existence can be proven with certain scientific disciplins from our ancient past. But of course, they're wholly rejected by today's science, so why should I even bother?
I'm a practitioner of the Tarot, a novice in Astrology, and an expert in Metaphysics. So again, to hear you blast on about how that's just posie because your Gods said so.
On this basis, it's impossible to have a scientific conversation with an evolutionist.

 

[Oaerkae]

He is giving you evidence, and you seem to be rejecting it.

Where?
Where is this evidence you speak of?
Where is the "Observable" naturalistic manipulation and transfer of dna among "seperate" species?

Irviding gave a little something on it, it's not the best thing in the world, but it's still there, even if it doesn't prove M.E to you.

it's awful cynical to always believe something is wrong,

I"m not saying M.E. is wrong, I'm saying...there is absolutely no evidence for the proveness of the theory as factual.
It very well may be correct/factual, but until evidence is provided, all we have are quotes and experiments.

Agreed.

don't confuse that with open-mindedness, okay....

Ok... -roll-

Hey, that's just my opinion, I have seen the two mixed, it ain't pretty. If that isn't what you are doing fine, I'll take you word for it, it looks like that's more what Howard is doing instead of you, but still.

and they are just definitions of words and scientific ideas and theories

They sure are!

Um... that statement wasn't ment to mean anything negative if that's what you were thinking, I liked what you did, I just wanted to debate you, and not have your treatise blocking it. If you want I'll debate it, although I kinda liked it.

Not to disrespect your opinions, but it seems odd to me that a person as skeptical as you are would believe in god, being the one thing that we will probably never prove, and who has so little evidence on his side that it's impossible to even prove his existence by even 1%. I would like you to tell me why you think this way, if you would.

Alright, if you say so...
Though, I'll only share one reason as to why I believe in god's existance...
About 3-4 years ago, I found myself near a stone alter...
..."How I got there?" you say...well I'll tell..
Every morning, about 3-4 years ago, I use to relax in the recliner before work, after having eaten breakfast and fed the animals.
Well this morning, something was different.
I didn't know what though...
So I relaxed in the recliner, I think I had "the simpsons" on or something, anyways...
I wasn't tired, as I have coffee, tea, and a hearty breakfast every morning, so...
I sat in the chair and began to watch whatever I had on playing, and I found myself...
FLOATING!
As in, I was as light as air, and slowly begging to move to an alter, a stone alter, with what appeared to be a lion on it.
There was fog, smoke, or some type of haze, all around, up to a few feet of the ground, if there even was ground.
So I was beginning to move slowly towards this majestic looking lion
However...
In my mind, my consiousness.
Yes, I was still aware
What came to my thought, was... "Lamb"
Not "Lion"
But, lamb. You know when you look at a car, you think car, when you look at a bird, you think bird.
Well I was staring at this majestic lion and I thought, lamb.
Like they were one and the same.
And for whatever reason, I knew that this lion, was a sub adult male.
The mane was there, although not to it full splendor,
All it was doing was staring at me, in such an awesomeness.
Then immidiately I was watching tv again!
Its quicker than instataniously,
I was here, then there, then back here again!
God, knows how that happened, haha,
So as I was sitting there with my mind trying to comprehend what had just happened, a thought came to me...
"Jesus is the lamb of God, and the lion of judah"

My sister has also been some place where I won't mention here, unless asked for by people here, and allow me to post with her permission.
Satisfied... ~wink~

Yes I think I am. Thank you for that.

Here's one of my many mottos, "don't always be asking 'why me/us'".

Oh, um...ok

Again this is just my opinion, I have seen people ask that all the time, and they just confuse themselves.

You may think it's wise to question the unanswerable things of this world, but sometimes it's more wise to save your thought for things you can answer.

So sometimes its unwise to think of things you can't answer?

In my opinion. It's not bad to do so, you know that, I do it all the time, I'm just saying, don't always. It's hard to get exactly what I'm thinking into a post. My point is... as close as can come to explaining it, I feel that always asking questions about things you can't explain tends to make people forget about things that would benifit them or others more. Note always.

His question of "why us why here" wasn't just some shot in the dark. There's something deeper behind what he's saying.

I think we're related somehow... ~cheesey_grin~
I'm going to start another topic soon about something I think you'll be interested in Howard, and would like Oaerkae, and others to participate in once its up.

Yeah, that would be interesting.

*Sigh* You don't get it. I wasn't talking about religion.... And if you didn't notice (which you didn't) I asked why he believed in god and not in evolution.

I hope you were intrigued by my reasoning behind my belief.
I believe, belief is personal, however, I want to share mine with others.

I was. And I agree.
I'm going to address just later in my post to howard.

you seem to be biased toward science because you can't prove it, then you say god exists.

They both take some bit of faith...don't they?

Uh-huh.

I want a different answer. Something better than the old "soul speak" everyone always gives. There is a difference between what I am asking.

I want the same answers as you I'm sure.
Simply for the fact that we are able to percieve ourselves as consiouse beings is a mystery in and of itself.

Definitly.

I agree, that is an interesting thing, and I have thought about it on occasion. Something like this I think could become an interesting idea for me to incorporate in my book.

I'm up for co-authoring if your interested, give me a shout.

-D- It's more sci-fi, but your ideas would be interesting. -😉-

Oaerkae: I'm not trying to be an asshole here btw.

As for your "soul speak" or whatever you call it... what's the f*****g problem? It's me who believes it, you don't have to.

Nothing's the ******* problem with me, the only person I see in this entire topic who seems to have a problem here is you. -😉- I know you're are not asking me to believe it, nor I'm I asking you to believe anything I say, I am simply saying that I want a different answer. Note I, it'll get you far. -D-
I don't think you are trying to be a ***hole, this is just a debate, anything we debate here has nothing to do with anything outside this topic, I am not taking this personally, and I hope you don't take anything I say personally either.

I've had experiences in my life, nothing like what Saruman has experienced, but big enough to tell me definitively that there is a higher order. A higher existence.
If I were to try and use that as scientific evidence to convince you that God exists, you'd just pass it off as delusion or inadequate evidence. Even though I had witnesses at times.

I would? And you know this... how? Oh... wait... you don't! In fact, you know nothing about what I think. I am debating, not stating opinions. Do something for yourself, find out what I think before you badger me.

So I don't want to put my heart on the line, just so you can have some 'evidence' you can poke at with some sticks and put in a test tube. It might be a shock to you, but having people try to convince you that you didn't experience/see what you damn well know you experienced/saw is VERY disconcerting and insulting.

I'm sorry, but your statements are making me laugh. You seem to believe that I want god in a test tube, I never said I wanted that, I never asked for that. Would you do something for me, either read my post, or stop debating with me.

I agree. There's a science of God. God's existence can be proven with certain scientific disciplins from our ancient past. But of course, they're wholly rejected by today's science, so why should I even bother?
I'm a practitioner of the Tarot, a novice in Astrology, and an expert in Metaphysics. So again, to hear you blast on about how that's just posie because your Gods said so.
On this basis, it's impossible to have a scientific conversation with an evolutionist.

I could say the same about you, but I like debating with people like yourself, even if they won't read my posts. Also, as for my "Gods", I have no human "gods", I am not copying anything someone else is saying, and I am not taking the side of the "Men in white coats", I am debating ideas with Saruman, asking questions, etc.

To end this post, a comment directed toward you howard is very much needed.
Throughout your post, you have determined all of my opinions without any knowledge of the truth. You seem to be skimming through my posts, noting only the big words, and then creating a mental vision of my mind's structure.
You know nothing about any of the opinions of mine, simply because I have not told you. If you debate everyone this way, it's a wonder you get anywhere. I don't know how you are coming to the conclusions you have made, but whatever you have done to come to this resolution, you need to stop, it's ridiculous. Ask me what my opinions are, then debate them. Please.

 

[CyberFreak]

Come on people.... You can debate but try to do it a calm and civilised manor please.

 

[katy perry is hot]

I'll say this once and once only:

Evolution has an abundance of evidence backing it up. Creationism has absolutely none.
To prove creationism, prove to me that god exists. Then we'll talk.

/thread

 

[Saruman]

Oaerkae, I am a syfy fanatic ~cheesey_grin~

Evolution has an abundance of evidence backing it up.

I have yet to see this evidence.
I have yet to see the naturalistic transferable manipulation of dna amongst separate species.

Creationism has absolutely none.

I think the best evidence for both, would be personal belief.

To prove creationism, prove to me that god exists. Then we'll talk.

Where did the so-called "singularity" come from?

You see, "I'm a Intelligent Design theorist," one who is showing possible evidence, for the possibility of a created universe, the known universe we live in.

 

[katy perry is hot]

" Show me the evidence " is what evolution deniers frequently say when they are either A) Too lazy to look up the evidence or B ) too scared it will answer their questions and prove their theory wrong

Read this page here: http://www.debateplace.com/index.php?sh ... =718&st=60

A member on my site ( RickK ) pretty much explained to a friend of mine, who also denied evolution, that he's out of his mind.

Trust me, RickK's post will guide you in the right direction.

 

[gqgk]

everyone believes everything they way too easily. for people that say religion is fake because the only proof is the bible you guys sure to hold strong to text -lol-

 

[Howard_Crane]

everyone believes everything they way too easily. for people that say religion is fake because the only proof is the bible you guys sure to hold strong to text -lol-

You deserve a meddle. I bet a lot of them read The God Delusion at least once a year.



Now.. Time for little miss drama queen.
I have read your posts. Yeah, I skimmed them. And do you really think I'd not take my time to understand you? I'm a psychologist, it's my job to understand you. Understanding people and their beliefs isn't as hard as it's made out to be. Let's do this in a rational, open way. I'll present to you what I think your position is, and if I'm wrong you can tell me so. This shit saves marraiges.

I gather you are here for a nice debate, as you've said. But your initial attitude was rather rabbid. And I felt you treated "Saruman" in a very funny manner. You didn't even read his material. I'm guessing you just read the definitions chapter and realised how boring it was, so you'd cut right to the chase. Nothing wrong with that, it's the Internet.

I just thought he made a big effort to convert the tags and to reformat this, to share information with you and our moderator liberal-patriot friend. It seems I may have took this the wrong way, and decided to question your tactics of debate.

Although I'm certain I did nothing wrong.

Moderator dude:
Can you identify where in that thread the discussion peaks? I have a neurological problem that effects my sight, I can't wade through meaningless banter to find this exchange. Thanks

 

[gqgk]

Howard,

it peaked when fowler said something/ the post after:

I'll say this once and once only:

Evolution has an abundance of evidence backing it up. Creationism has absolutely none.
To prove creationism, prove to me that god exists. Then we'll talk.

/thread

first of God and creationism are 2 separate issues. many Christians do not believe in creationism. so you're arguing with people that you dont even know what they believe. How can you do that. for example i dont believe in tarot like howard, but i dont understand the WHOLE belief so i'm not going to debate it. to debate someone that you dont understand simply means you are psuedo-intellect trying to show your superiority on a forum because everyone in life thinks you tend to do nothing but argue mood points therefore they stop listening so you have to go on a forum where ppl have no choice but to listen. sorry for being mean but its the nicest way to put it. so before you argue with a whole people learn what each of them stand for 🙂 have a great day everyone -lol-

 

[katy perry is hot]

Creationism has two definitions-

Creationism that some Christians subscribe to: the literal belief in the account of Creation given in the Book of Genesis; "creationism denies the theory of evolution of species"

Creation that you guys subscribe to: Creationism is the religious belief that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe were created in their original form by a deity force.

Prove to me that a deity force exists then.