The Olde Piracy Debate

[Azareal]

An old contentious debate with arguments for and against. One side would say that piracy is free marketing as it exposes a software to people who wouldn't have been capable of or willing to buy it at full price (e.g. Photoshop).

The other side says that piracy leads to people pirating a piece of software instead of buying it leading to a decrease to sales. Another thing I'll add is that pirated software tends to contain malware, so use it at your own risk.

 

[Azareal]

I'll start with a couple of points.

First, piracy / chargebacks / etc. are probably one of the reasons why IPB and newer forum software are adopting official hosting solutions, with Discourse / NodeBB simply making the software itself free to get some good will points that way and making their money off hosting.

However, there are a number of people who can't afford to pay $800 for a copy of Photoshop, especially younger folks, also in a number of countries, a large portion of the population live in complete and utter poverty, at-least compared to the wealthier countries.

 

[Jason76]

Pirating is stealing and it's wrong even if the corporation is megarich.

You see mega-rich corporations hire less wealthy people, maybe even poor people. So when you're rip off Donald Trump, you're also ripping off some minimum wage guy. Is that right??

However, there are a number of people who can't afford to pay $800 for a copy of Photoshop, especially younger folks, also in a number of countries, a large portion of the population live in complete and utter poverty, at-least compared to the wealthier countries.

The beauty of capitalism is that someone could make the same thing, charge way less and beat them out of the market! They would also be a hero in the third world!

 

[Cosmic]

If you look back in history, Piracy was a very severely punished crime, and for good reason. Commerce on the high seas was and still is vitally important to the world economy. And the tactics that pirates engaged in were very despicable. The reaction to pirates during colonial times, in ways, mirrors the response to militant terror groups in the modern age. There were small, independent, and heavily armed bands of vagabonds who caused chaos to legitimate commerce. Countries fought wars with them, including the US.

Piracy has come a long way. Today, some commit piracy over the internet. I say that it is the same. Lawless marauding. It must be stopped! We need the navy to protect innocent commerce from attack from bandits on the cyber seas.

 

[Jason76]

If you look back in history, Piracy was a very severely punished crime, and for good reason. Commerce on the high seas was and still is vitally important to the world economy. And the tactics that pirates engaged in were very despicable. The reaction to pirates during colonial times, in ways, mirrors the response to militant terror groups in the modern age. There were small, independent, and heavily armed bands of vagabonds who caused chaos to legitimate commerce. Countries fought wars with them, including the US.

Piracy has come a long way. Today, some commit piracy over the internet. I say that it is the same. Lawless marauding. It must be stopped! We need the navy to protect innocent commerce from attack from bandits on the cyber seas.

But yet university teams, including my Alma mater, name their sports teams after Pirates !!

 

[Azareal]

But yet university teams, including my Alma mater, name their sports teams after Pirates !!

That's because classical piracy has been somewhat glamorised in the media lol

We need the navy to protect innocent commerce from attack from bandits on the cyber seas.

That's really the last thing we need, unless you want the government to ban YouTube and a good portion of the web.

Commerce on the high seas was and still is vitally important to the world economy.

Physically taking something by force and depriving the other person of their item is a completely different thing from having the capability to make a trillion copies. No one is denied the original.

The beauty of capitalism is that someone could make the same thing, charge way less and beat them out of the market!

Not really. Just about every tool, platform, programming language, etc. are first and foremost in English. It's not really a secret. That alone is a barrier, really.

If you don't know English and know it really well, then well, you're not going to get far in this market. Sad, but true. Although, I'm always for efforts to make things more accessible.

 

[Jason76]

OK, what about the San Diego State Drug Runners? 🙄

 

[Azareal]

OK, what about the San Diego State Drug Runners? 🙄

The media paints things how it likes. A few decades back, computer hackers were basically operating system developers and what-not really deep in their craft.

And now, it's people who break into people's computers.
In a sense, it's almost disrespectful, but that's the phrase they coined and things went along from there.

 

[Jason76]

OK, what about the San Diego State Drug Runners? 🙄

The media paints things how it likes. A few decades back, computer hackers were basically operating system developers and what-not really deep in their craft.

And now, it's people who break into people's computers.
In a sense, it's almost disrespectful, but that's the phrase they coined and things went along from there.

Either thieves or trolls. Anyway, it's a serious offense now on par with Blackbeard - and I don't blame people who hate them! Do you?

 

[Azareal]

And, this is probably a bone to chew in a different topic, but I think the traditional software model is dying out in favour of subscriptions or people are outright going for SaaS (Software as a Service).

One problem with a piece of software is that feel like they own it, and any further attempts to raise money to continue development tends to create resentment among users.

I see this a fair bit around here regarding IPB, to be honest.

Either thieves or trolls. Anyway, it's a serious offense now on par with Blackbeard - and I don't blame people who hate them! Do you?

People who blame them? What exactly are referring to here?

 

[Azareal]

Either thieves or trolls. Anyway, it's a serious offense now on par with Blackbeard - and I don't blame people who hate them! Do you?

Let's rephrase it for you. The word used to mean computer enthusiasts. Now, it means criminals. The media does what it wants, when it wants, for whatever reason it wants.

As for people sinking ships or mowing people down with guns, you're not going to equate that to torrenting a copy of Photoshop, are you? Are you perhaps suggesting that people should be locked away for decades or executed, much like a bunch of career criminals who have killed dozens might be?

And I am well aware that large ships are equipped with guns to deal with them.
And it's silly to compare the two.

 

[Azareal]

I mean, don't get me wrong, it would be great if people contributed to sustainable models, like how iTunes helped to drive the cost of songs down and what-not, but when a crucial product for making a living is priced as high as $1000 or more, then it really becomes quite silly, especially if you're not living in a rich pampered country.

You could even extend that to $200 premium software to some extent.
Some companies try to deal with the problem by charging different regions different prices, but that's pretty hard to police on the internet.

And I'm sure there are plenty of people who are less well off who likely feel discriminated against in those cases.

 

[Jason76]

Criminals have to punished. If fun and games eventually becomes robbery and bullying then something has to be done. In many cases, especially with robbery, prison time is a must and in the past - they would just execute - probably with torture.

 

[Azareal]

Criminals have to punished. If fun and games eventually becomes robbery and bullying then something has to be done. In many cases, especially with robbery, prison time is a must and in the past - they would just execute - probably with torture.

Let me put it plain and simple. Software piracy is not robbery. And it never will be.

It's akin to giving out a machine which magically produces bananas out of thin air, if it's bananas which you've designed yourself from the molecular level, then you don't have to pay me, otherwise you have to for each unit produced.

But, it is unsustainable, especially if those who do it have the economic means to cover the payments.

 

[Jason76]

Criminals have to punished. If fun and games eventually becomes robbery and bullying then something has to be done. In many cases, especially with robbery, prison time is a must and in the past - they would just execute - probably with torture.

Let me put it plain and simple. Software piracy is not robbery. And it never will be.

It's akin to giving out a machine which magically produces bananas out of thin air, if it's bananas which you've designed yourself from the molecular level, then you don't have to pay me, otherwise you have to for each unit produced.

But, it is unsustainable, especially if those who do it have the economic means to cover the payments.

Well, moral arguments aside, it simply cannot be enforced in many cases. Therefore, the makers of the software have to build in-built protections against it. For instance, with XenForo (and I've already turned myself in), you can get one license and use, illegally, the upgrades for all your other domains.

 

[Azareal]

Well, moral arguments aside, it simply cannot be enforced in many cases. Therefore, the makers of the software have to build in-built protections against it. For instance, with XenForo (and I've already turned myself in), you can get one license and use, illegally, the upgrades for all your other domains.

To be honest, if you have the economic capability to pay for licenses, then you should always do it. Not just for moral grounds either, but because a lot of these pirated copies of things tend to have backdoors or malware in them.

Is it worth saving a bit of cash, if it means that your business crashes down from someone skimming people's credit cards or whatever else they want to do?
And does XenForo not give you some sort of bulk discount or something? Not that related to this, but curious.

And you are mistaken about one thing, there is actually nothing the makers of a software can do about it, they can certainly try to counter the situation, but it's a game of cat and mouse. An arms race. Much like our battle against spam.

And if someone has a server in China, then well, they are right out of luck, as China could careless about copyright and trademarks.

 

[Cosmic]

That's really the last thing we need, unless you want the government to ban YouTube and a good portion of the web.

Well, I don’t think that the government should go about banning places like YouTube. Yes, YouTube is pirate infested waters. Like the Caribbean. But that doesn’t mean that the Caribbean should be walled off. Rather, it should be patrolled by the Queen’s Royal Navy.

Physically taking something by force and depriving the other person of their item is a completely different thing from having the capability to make a trillion copies. No one is denied the original.

Yes but surely the creator is denied those trillion copies, which it is their right to commission and profiteer. Piracy is banditry still, for these goods are taken from the owner and denied them the ability to sell.

As for people sinking ships or mowing people down with guns, you're not going to equate that to torrenting a copy of Photoshop, are you? Are you perhaps suggesting that people should be locked away for decades or executed, much like a bunch of career criminals who have killed dozens might be?

Hmm, I would say that the person who downloads is not the one committing maritime banditry. They are akin to those who buy gold from the pirates, which was stolen from Spanish treasure galleons. However, those who distribute pirated material are indeed the Blackbeards and Captain Morgans.

 

[Azareal]

Well, I don’t think that the government should go about banning places like YouTube. Yes, YouTube is pirate infested waters. Like the Caribbean. But that doesn’t mean that the Caribbean should be walled off. Rather, it should be patrolled by the Queen’s Royal Navy.

Nah, every law basically involves automating more and more things.

With YT, videos are taken down by an algorithm, one with a lot of false positives.
It mistook bird calls for music once and when you appeal, the appeal goes through to the people who uploaded the sample of music or w/e, but they also have a bot which automatically denies your appeal.

 

[Jason76]

As a side note, used stuff isn't the same as pirating. People like my brother get that confused I think. Note, back when Napster first came out he was just downloading like crazy - just seeing it as more used stuff probably.

 

[Yarik]

Another thing I'll add is that pirated software tends to contain malware

Not necessary.