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Deleted member 1609
I don't believe that the second amendment is necessary anymore since there is no longer a militia.
Gunman Shoots 12 dead today!
- Thread starter MissTake
- Start date
Watch Me Sink
Madly Diligent
While there is no militia anymore, the grounds of creating the amendment was that a militia was needed. And the wording doesn't say something like "If there is a militia, you can have guns. If not, you're outta luck."Snobothehobo said:
It would take a very liberal Supreme Court to declare the Second Amendment unconstitutional.
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Deleted member 1609
I agree. I realize that the second amendment isn't going anywhere as much as I'd like it to do so.Kirisute Gomen said:
You on first name terms with him then?swood said:
Idiotic. If gun laws weren't so strict, more people who shouldn't would get their hands on them and those who wouldn't want to kill anyone anyway would not only probably not want a gun, but when the time comes that they'd use it in self defence they'd be unable to pull the trigger.Kirisute Gomen said:
And do you honestly think that the first person would have had time to get the gun out of their handbag before they were shot, or taken hostage?
swood said:
Got 'em legally, had a firearms license and everything.
And how will stricter gun laws FORCE people to buy illegal guns?
And I live (and work) in Merseyside, one of the more active areas for gun crime. And my type of work means I get told about gun crime when it happens.
ALL gun crime in the UK is public interest information, and is released by the media immediately as it happens. It's the same with knife crime, as soon as it happens it's in the media.
I don't know where everyone gets these suspicions of conspiracy, that the media and government are hiding incidents to make us seem better, but it's not true at all. Every incident of crime with an offensive weapon is released to the media.
Gun crime is not common in the UK, so when it happens it hits the headlines and it hits them hard.
Per capita and percentage based statistics mean it is completely irrelevant how many people you have in the population..
Guns were already legal in America, so making THEIR gun laws stricter is stupid, as everyone already has a gun. In the UK it is a completely different matter. Controlling the guns in the UK makes far more sense as guns aren't commonplace just yet.
They're not really 2 countries that you can compare in this way due to the differences in laws in the past. Making the same change in 2 countries with completely different backgrounds is obviously going to have completely different effects. You can't look for the effect that relaxing laws on gun crime will have on the UK by looking anywhere other than the UK. And giving people a gun isn't a good idea.
The victims of this crime were random and instant (in many cases). They simply would NOT have had the time to see what's going on and pull out their gun, otherwise they'd have had the time to get out of the way and escape before they were shot.
I agree spree killings ARE rare here, as I'm sure they are still quite rare in the USA. As Dav said they are so rare it only happens once a decade, Michael Ryan shot dead 16 people in Hungerford in 1987, Thomas Hamilton shot dead 16 school children and a teacher in Dunblane in 1996 and now this in 2010.
I don't know the statistics for either country but I can quite well imagine that individual killings with a gun in America pass by without hardly a mention where as here in the UK if someone is killed by a gun it makes the national news. I'm of the opinion that our gun laws are a very good thing, to know that your average Joe in the street is probably not carrying a loaded weapon and won't blow your head off if you accidentally look at him the wrong way is no bad thing.
I don't know the statistics for either country but I can quite well imagine that individual killings with a gun in America pass by without hardly a mention where as here in the UK if someone is killed by a gun it makes the national news. I'm of the opinion that our gun laws are a very good thing, to know that your average Joe in the street is probably not carrying a loaded weapon and won't blow your head off if you accidentally look at him the wrong way is no bad thing.
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Deleted member 4320
I was shocked when I saw it on the news yesterday. It was all over the news yesterday, that was pretty much the only thing on it.
L. L. Whats your problem?
As long as the government has guns, so should I. Till the governments are relieved of arms, this is the end of discussion.
But regarding guns generally, I like them, they are fun and it's one of the hobbies that keeps me from sitting infront of the computer screen 24/7 while I'm not working.
I like guns, if you have a problem with it, then you can go over 'there' and live in your perfect little world.
As long as the government has guns, so should I. Till the governments are relieved of arms, this is the end of discussion.
But regarding guns generally, I like them, they are fun and it's one of the hobbies that keeps me from sitting infront of the computer screen 24/7 while I'm not working.
I like guns, if you have a problem with it, then you can go over 'there' and live in your perfect little world.
If you outlaw guns, you give all the power to the criminals, and strip all the power from your law abiding citizens. This is common sense kiddos, not a politcal or moral point of view. If you have a group of people that will not follow the letter of the law, then outlawing weapons breeds anarchy of normal people not being able to defend themselves.
Sounds to me like your 'happy to be gun-banning society' just had another 'gun massacre', no?
Your cops are armed, right? I guess they got there a little too late for the people that got wasted by this ass of a human. If only there had been an armed GOOD GUY there to actually save someone, instead of saying, " If I had only had a gun with me....."
Sounds to me like your 'happy to be gun-banning society' just had another 'gun massacre', no?
Your cops are armed, right? I guess they got there a little too late for the people that got wasted by this ass of a human. If only there had been an armed GOOD GUY there to actually save someone, instead of saying, " If I had only had a gun with me....."
I did in an earlier post, :roll:
What this sad story says to me is:
1) People who shouldn't have guns will always still be able to get them.
2) The police can not possibly protect an entire country from these hideous acts.
3) Strict gun control DOES NOT protect against gun related violence (see point 1).
The only people effected by gun laws are the lawful, who aren't the people we should be worried about having guns!
And I doubt conceal and carry would cause more crime. In order to get the permit at least here, you are forced to register your weapon, yourself and take a course. The law is actually harder on you if you where to discharge your firearm in public. Lots of jail time for it. If you use it to defend someone, you better be able to prove it. Then again the criminals (who will always have guns) will think twice as they will never know who is packing and who is not. That's pretty well the purpose behind the issuance of conceal and carry permits to the public.
What this sad story says to me is:
1) People who shouldn't have guns will always still be able to get them.
2) The police can not possibly protect an entire country from these hideous acts.
3) Strict gun control DOES NOT protect against gun related violence (see point 1).
The only people effected by gun laws are the lawful, who aren't the people we should be worried about having guns!
And I doubt conceal and carry would cause more crime. In order to get the permit at least here, you are forced to register your weapon, yourself and take a course. The law is actually harder on you if you where to discharge your firearm in public. Lots of jail time for it. If you use it to defend someone, you better be able to prove it. Then again the criminals (who will always have guns) will think twice as they will never know who is packing and who is not. That's pretty well the purpose behind the issuance of conceal and carry permits to the public.
Saruman said:
Yeah, 1 per decade and you say 'ANOTHER gun massacre'?
And no. In general our police force is not armed. You know why? Because the vast VAST majority of our crimes do not require firearms.
We do have an Armed Response Unit, but they are only called out for firearms incidents.
Lets put it another way; Okay lets say for arguments sake that legal guns would have saved maybe.. 6 out of the 12 people in Cumbria.
..That's saving 6 people in ONE incident. The amount of extra incidents we'd get from everyone having access to firearms (including the unstable; remember Bird from the Cumbria attacks had a license for both of his weapons, and relaxing the gun laws would mean guns for more people) would be a hell of a lot more than the 6 people saved in this ONE incident.
In the bigger picture, I feel far, far safer knowing that the average joe on the street does not have access to firearms in any way.
As stated; Bird LEGALLY owned both weapons, and had VALID licenses for each. Yet you think the only people we are to worry about aren't lawful?
..Are you sure?
Watch Me Sink
Madly Diligent
You're sort of just proving his point again. Since he owned the guns legally, he had access to them. If he didn't own guns, he would have gotten them by illegal means. One way or another he's gonna get the damn gun. Police can't be everywhere, so do you think unarmed citizens would stop him? Hell no. They're running for their lives. If there were armed citizens around, his massacre would have ended early.
I'd feel much safer walking around knowing that I'd have the means to defend myself, then just being defenseless.
I'd feel much safer walking around knowing that I'd have the means to defend myself, then just being defenseless.
Kirisute Gomen said:
You know that for fact? If guns were THAT easy to get on UK streets, all criminals would have them.. But they don't.
Not to mention this guy WAS a semi-decent man. His only crimes were a couple instances of theft years ago.
I fully believe if he hadn't had the gun, he wouldn't have gotten it. And if he hadn't have gotten it he wouldn't have been able to commit this crime.
To get a gun in the UK you need damn good contacts because UK are extremely cautious about our firearms distributions.
Frankly to come out and say 'he would have just gotten it illegally' is a pure speculative guess, based on absolutely no knowledge of the man who committed the crime and absolutely no knowledge of UK culture and law.
This man was a totally ordinary run of the mill bloke, he was 52, had no connection to gangs, criminals, dealers or anything of the like, he would not have gone and just simply got a gun because he felt like it!
If he had not had the gun license, he would not ordinarily have had guns in his home, therefore when he flipped, he would not have gone and shot close to 40 individual people yesterday. He could quite well have flipped out and gone and stabbed some of them, but not shot them.
I heard yesterday that 65,000 gun licenses were issued last year in the UK, each person must pass a series of tests to actually acquire one, proof of legitimate usage, safety and security and background checks. In a country of 52 million that's not an awful lot....The license is however renewable every 5 years, I think this should be every 12 months as a person can change a lot in 5 years.
If he had not had the gun license, he would not ordinarily have had guns in his home, therefore when he flipped, he would not have gone and shot close to 40 individual people yesterday. He could quite well have flipped out and gone and stabbed some of them, but not shot them.
I heard yesterday that 65,000 gun licenses were issued last year in the UK, each person must pass a series of tests to actually acquire one, proof of legitimate usage, safety and security and background checks. In a country of 52 million that's not an awful lot....The license is however renewable every 5 years, I think this should be every 12 months as a person can change a lot in 5 years.
Well, if I ever come across someone here picking off innocent civilians one by one and see no one else doing anything, after, asessing the situation, I would surely unload a clip into him.
People like that guy deserves to be locked away forever, yet I wouldnt wait for law enforcement to arrive to arrest him, as he continues to pick off people left and right, where I could end it right then and there.
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Ignore the uk, or the us, or anything, just pretend you live somewhere and going about your daily life...Your walking around for god knows why, and someone begins shooting at you and others around.
Would you prefer you and the other civilians around you to be carrying concealed guns for self defense or carrying nothing at all, and would have to depend on your reflexes and sprinting speed to avoid the suspects trigger finger?
Would you prefer to be defenseless against hoolagens like this guy and hope that the police show up in time to reduce the amount of victims?
I just don't understand why someone would place trust in lawenforcement, or "LAWS" in general to "protect" their daily living.
Since I know abosuletly nothing about living in the UK...
Explain to me how being defenseless and relying on the respond time of the police is a practical way of life overthere. 😎
People like that guy deserves to be locked away forever, yet I wouldnt wait for law enforcement to arrive to arrest him, as he continues to pick off people left and right, where I could end it right then and there.
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Ignore the uk, or the us, or anything, just pretend you live somewhere and going about your daily life...Your walking around for god knows why, and someone begins shooting at you and others around.
Would you prefer you and the other civilians around you to be carrying concealed guns for self defense or carrying nothing at all, and would have to depend on your reflexes and sprinting speed to avoid the suspects trigger finger?
Would you prefer to be defenseless against hoolagens like this guy and hope that the police show up in time to reduce the amount of victims?
I just don't understand why someone would place trust in lawenforcement, or "LAWS" in general to "protect" their daily living.
Since I know abosuletly nothing about living in the UK...
Explain to me how being defenseless and relying on the respond time of the police is a practical way of life overthere. 😎
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