Isis?

[Cosmic]

Then why aren't you following Leviticus? 😛

I can actually provide insight on this subject. The Old Testament of the Bible derives from Judaism which is what the Jewish people follow. Christianity follows the New Testament which is about Jesus Christ.

The New Testament was made specifically for Christianity since it is about gentiles (Non-Jews) since gentiles had no way to enter heaven. Jesus teaches exactly as follows. Not to Judge, To Forgive, To Pray for those who hate you and mistreat you, etc. Nowhere in the New Testament can you find a verse that declares Christianity to attack any form of a non-believer, homosexual, etc because it isn't Christianity place to do anything but preach about Jesus to the rest of the gentile race not to judge.

Islam is all about judging others and condemning those who refuse to believe in it to death. Christianity is about peace through Jesus who gave people a chance to enter Heaven when we had none. That is the difference.

Christianity is about freedom of choice not by force.
Islam is about force and denies any form of freedom of choice.

So, I guess that's why we have all those Jews running around killing gay people, since they don't have a New Testament? 😛

Anyway, what you said about both religions is what they mean to you. But if you look at one individual person, and ask yourself whether they are going to commit a violent act, you have to ask yourself what their religion means to them, not what it means to you or to ISIS.

If you were to actually go about and try to solve the problem, then your best approach would be to try and convince people to take a more positive interpretation of their current religion, because that's easier to do then to convince them to follow a different one. By calling all Muslims violent, you are actually adding to the problem by reinforcing their self-image of violence, and telling them that the only way to honor their god is through violence.

 

[Deleted member 5665]

Then why aren't you following Leviticus? 😛

I can actually provide insight on this subject. The Old Testament of the Bible derives from Judaism which is what the Jewish people follow. Christianity follows the New Testament which is about Jesus Christ.

The New Testament was made specifically for Christianity since it is about gentiles (Non-Jews) since gentiles had no way to enter heaven. Jesus teaches exactly as follows. Not to Judge, To Forgive, To Pray for those who hate you and mistreat you, etc. Nowhere in the New Testament can you find a verse that declares Christianity to attack any form of a non-believer, homosexual, etc because it isn't Christianity place to do anything but preach about Jesus to the rest of the gentile race not to judge.

Islam is all about judging others and condemning those who refuse to believe in it to death. Christianity is about peace through Jesus who gave people a chance to enter Heaven when we had none. That is the difference.

Christianity is about freedom of choice not by force.
Islam is about force and denies any form of freedom of choice.

So, I guess that's why we have all those Jews running around killing gay people since they don't have a New Testament? 😛

Anyway, what you said about both religions is what they mean to you. But if you look at one individual person, and ask yourself whether they are going to commit a violent act, you have to ask yourself what their religion means to them, not what it means to you or to ISIS.

If you were to actually go about and try to solve the problem, then your best approach would be to try and convince people to take a more positive interpretation of their current religion, because that's easier to do then to convince them to follow a different one. By calling all Muslims violent, you are actually adding to the problem by reinforcing their self-image of violence, and telling them that the only way to honor their god is through violence.

I find it interesting that you did bring up the word Muslim in the sense as if we're attacking Muslims. I will mention again Muslims are not the issue Islam is. I already previous quoted exactly what Islam is from its own book. ISIS and Iran both show exactly what Islam stance is to the rest of the world. If you're blind to those two things I guess nothing will teach you until an Islamic is standing over your head and beheads you, maybe then you'll figure it out. The hard way, sadly.

 

[John]

If you're ignoring parts of a religion, you're not really following it--you're following what you want to follow.

Then why aren't you following Leviticus? 😛

Hidden summed this up pretty well. Christians follow the New Testament.

You're making a flawed argument: it's one that people are violent. I never said that people aren't violent. I said, however, that the Muslim faith encourages violence. Hidden and I have both argued in favor of that, and we've both quite simply made our points clear. You're attempting to bring Christianity into this, which isn't a debate: it's a shouting contest. We're not debating Christianity; we're debating Islam.

The problem, though, is that while Islam does encourage violence, it does not encourage violence any more than Christianity does, as evidenced by the past actions of the Catholic Church under exactly the same Bible as used by Christians today. If you are going to criticize "those people over there," you have to also look at yourself to see whether the same criticism applies to you. Otherwise, you don't have any grounds to criticize at all.

We're not talking about Christianity though. 😛 We're talking (or at least, were talking) about Islam.

It is clear to anyone that there is more violence in the Middle East than there is in the West, and it is also clear that Christianity is the dominant religion in the West, while Islam is in the east. However, correlation is not causation. The Middle East has a lot of problems, which are more due to geographical, political, and historical reasons than religious. I think it is much most likely that ISIS is due to rampant poverty and the power vacuum created by the Arab Spring. They use religion as one of their main "propaganda points," true, but more often than not, people are motivated by the lust for power, money, and sex than the wish to worship a god.
I agree with that; to an extent. People are killing in the name of Allah, though. It's not like they're not saying anything; they've made their motives clear.

The bolded part is something that I find to be completely untrue. The Bible's most important prophet was Jesus; who taught of love, mercy, and kindness. The Quran's most important prophet was Mohammed; who had a 9-year-old girl (named Aisha bint Abu Bakr) as one of his wives. There is a fundamental difference between those two Gods, IMO.

Both religions follow the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacoob. Judaism is the original religion. Christianity branches off from that around 0 AD, and Islam branched off at around 1,000 AD. Christianity has also since branched off into Protestantism and Catholicism (around 1500 AD), and Muslim has branched off into Suni and Shia. They all worship the same god though; that's a matter of historical fact.

Historically they do. If you want to go further back: Islam was founded by one of Abraham's sons. However, by looking at the world now, and by reading their respective religious laws; do you still believe they're the same? It's very, very, very hard to argue that. As I said above: they both have very different main points and prophets.

 

[Rebel]

Both religions follow the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacoob. Judaism is the original religion. Christianity branches off from that around 0 AD, and Islam branched off at around 1,000 AD. Christianity has also since branched off into Protestantism and Catholicism (around 1500 AD), and Muslim has branched off into Suni and Shia. They all worship the same god though; that's a matter of historical fact.

This is wrong. It's actually completely backwards lol. Judaism came first. Jesus was a Jew. The ministry of Jesus however became it's own religion and formed in Catholicism. From Catholicism came Protestantism when Martin Luther separated in the Reformation. Christianity as it is branched off from there. The idea that Christianity predates Catholics is ridiculous. The Catholic church is one of the oldest organized religions in history and stands today as the oldest Kingdom ever (considering it's reach and structure it is a kingdom). They do not worship the same God however. That is not fact.

Jews worship God but they do not worship Jesus. The problem being that God is three beings in one, the Holy Trinity, otherwise known as Triunity. It says right in the Bible that you cannot worship one and not the others. God is a package lol. You can't pick and choose.

Catholics worship the Trinity. God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. One being in three forms.

Islam however is another story. Allah is not God. Allah is the prophet Muhammad who among other things violated many of God's commandments. Christians consider him a false idol. A false God. Why would one worship a man who was a known murdered, a known pedophile, and more?

The thing is a lot of you guys like to rattle off about religion like you know it. You don't. You read it on the internet. You read it in a book. Maybe you read the bible. Hell, maybe you even got into a verbal argument with a pastor or a bible thumper. The problem is I've never yet met anyone online, outside of a religious forum, that truly understands Christianity (and, yes, even though Catholicism predates the term it's still included in it). The Bible offers a lot more than you guys are giving out. I'm not that religious but I go to a very religious college and I'll tell you right now some of my classes are straight up theology. Hell, I could go into seminary if I wanted, but I'm too busy having fun so screw it.

 

[Rebel]

ISIS is Islam it is a pure representation of what Islam and the Quran stands for. As I said why do you think nations like China and many other nations who have banned Islam did so? They are smart enough to know what Islam is.

Yep, and the Westboro Baptist Church is the best representation of the Christian faith. They're so good at interpreting the Bible in the most literal way possible. 😛

The Bible literally says to execute gay people. I'm sorry, but that just speaks to the fact that these holy books all contain a bunch of BS that everyone agrees to just ignore.

A cult hardly represents the entire following. Every organization has it's fringes. Islam however is not a small organization and it's teachings actually do promote a radicalized agenda. It's hard to discount the problems of Islam when they as a people have been at war with someone (at times themselves) for several THOUSAND years. Might be time to stop defending them and go "well, shit, there's a problem here" lol.

The Bible does not say the execute gay people. That is a lie. You know it's a lie, I know it's a lie, Hell probably everyone here knows it's a lie. You couldn't back it up even if you tried. The problem of course being that in the ten commandments it says "thou shall not kill". It doesn't say thou shall not kill (but fuck those gays up). No, it says thou shall not kill. it's definitive. It's absolute. There's no room to question it. It's right there. So the claim the bible says to kill gays is as dishonest as it gets because within the first few chapters of the bible...you don't even have to read that far...your claim is completely debunked lol. The Bible contains the teaching of God. You can love it, you can hate it, you can curse it, you can praise it, but it's your soul gambling with. Don't believe in a soul? Don't, it believes in you. :yes:

 

[Cosmic]

I find it interesting that you did bring up the word Muslim in the sense as if we're attacking Muslims. I will mention again Muslims are not the issue Islam is. I already previous quoted exactly what Islam is from its own book. ISIS and Iran both show exactly what Islam stance is to the rest of the world. If you're blind to those two things I guess nothing will teach you until an Islamic is standing over your head and beheads you, maybe then you'll figure it out. The hard way, sadly.

Islam and Muslim are used interchangeably. Generally, Islam is the name of the religion, and a Muslim is someone who practices it. There really isn't a word for "Muslimism." 😛

And I guess I'll condemn Islam right after I get beheaded, just like I'll ask for gun control after someone shoots me. Honestly, that argument is a classic appeal to emotion. The statistical chance of anyone dying from Islamic Terror is extremely, extremely low, particularly in the US. If you don't believe that, then I honestly don't know what to say. Run the numbers.

Hidden summed this up pretty well. Christians follow the New Testament.

Do you consider the Old Testament to be holy scripture?

We're not talking about Christianity though. 😛 We're talking (or at least, were talking) about Islam.

Right now, we're discussing how violent Islam is. Well, suppose someone created a machine that could tell you how violent a religion was. You ask the machine how violent Islam is, and it gives you the answer "5." The problem is, "5" doesn't mean much on its own. You have to consider other religions to have any context.

A religion can only be evaluated in terms of how it compares with other ones, just like you can only evaluate how good a television set is by comparing it with other, competing models. It's impossible to discuss how good or bad Islam is without considering its alternatives. If Islam's level of violence is a 5 and Christianity's is a 4, then that would mean Islam is violent, but not much more violent than what we're all used to. If Christianity's level of violence is a 1, then maybe it is a problem. But my point is that it's always based on context.

By saying that we should only discuss Islam, it feels to me like you're trying to avoid the issue. The fact is that the Bible has been used to justify atrocities, just like the Quoran has. All religion can be used to justify violence and hatred. Anything that humans are passionate about can.

This is wrong. It's actually completely backwards lol. Judaism came first. Jesus was a Jew. The ministry of Jesus however became it's own religion and formed in Catholicism. From Catholicism came Protestantism when Martin Luther separated in the Reformation. Christianity as it is branched off from there. The idea that Christianity predates Catholics is ridiculous. The Catholic church is one of the oldest organized religions in history and stands today as the oldest Kingdom ever (considering it's reach and structure it is a kingdom). They do not worship the same God however. That is not fact.

This point actually is trivial. 😛

You are correct that Christianity is a very modern concept, although I wouldn't lump Paul's church in with the Catholic Church. If I recall correctly, the origin of the Catholic Church can be linked more closely to the fall of the Roman Empire, when the institution morphed from one supported by the Roman Emperors, to one that was able to survive as its own independent entity amongst the chaos of Dark Age Europe.

That said, this actually is getting a little bit irrelevant. 😛 You don't have to prove to me how much you know about the history of the early Christian Church if it's not relevant to the discussion.

Jews worship God but they do not worship Jesus. The problem being that God is three beings in one, the Holy Trinity, otherwise known as Triunity. It says right in the Bible that you cannot worship one and not the others. God is a package lol. You can't pick and choose.

Catholics worship the Trinity. God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. One being in three forms.

Islam however is another story. Allah is not God. Allah is the prophet Muhammad who among other things violated many of God's commandments. Christians consider him a false idol. A false God. Why would one worship a man who was a known murdered, a known pedophile, and more?

You clearly don't know very much about Islamic theology. I don't know either, but saying that Mohammed is the same as Allah sounds like willful ignorance to me. If you don't like a religion, no one's forcing you to like it, but don't make up stuff about it just because it. 😛

The thing is a lot of you guys like to rattle off about religion like you know it. You don't. You read it on the internet. You read it in a book. Maybe you read the bible. Hell, maybe you even got into a verbal argument with a pastor or a bible thumper. The problem is I've never yet met anyone online, outside of a religious forum, that truly understands Christianity (and, yes, even though Catholicism predates the term it's still included in it). The Bible offers a lot more than you guys are giving out. I'm not that religious but I go to a very religious college and I'll tell you right now some of my classes are straight up theology. Hell, I could go into seminary if I wanted, but I'm too busy having fun so screw it.

And you think Mohammed and Allah are the same thing?

... Okay. 😛

A cult hardly represents the entire following. Every organization has it's fringes. Islam however is not a small organization and it's teachings actually do promote a radicalized agenda. It's hard to discount the problems of Islam when they as a people have been at war with someone (at times themselves) for several THOUSAND years. Might be time to stop defending them and go "well, ****, there's a problem here" lol.

The United States has been in some war or another for most of its history. So have most countries. Wars are a fact of human existence, and religion is an extremely common justification for them. Just look at the wars between Catholic and Protestant countries in Europe around the time of the 1500s.

The Bible does not say the execute gay people. That is a lie. You know it's a lie, I know it's a lie, Hell probably everyone here knows it's a lie. You couldn't back it up even if you tried. The problem of course being that in the ten commandments it says "thou shall not kill". It doesn't say thou shall not kill (but **** those gays up). No, it says thou shall not kill. it's definitive. It's absolute. There's no room to question it. It's right there. So the claim the bible says to kill gays is as dishonest as it gets because within the first few chapters of the bible...you don't even have to read that far...your claim is completely debunked lol. The Bible contains the teaching of God. You can love it, you can hate it, you can curse it, you can praise it, but it's your soul gambling with. Don't believe in a soul? Don't, it believes in you. :yes:

This is what it says:

'If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
-Leviticus 20:13

I guess by "put to death," it means that they really hugged them and gave them a pat on the back? 😛

That said, that commandment has been translated in various ways. Sometimes as "Thou shalt not kill" and sometimes as "thou shalt not murder." Killing is the act of taking another person's life, while murder is the illegal act of taking another person's life.

If God commands you to take someone's life, then you have to do it. An example would be God commanding Abraham to kill Isaac (which Abraham was perfectly willing to do, and God felt necessary to test Abraham on). It should also be noted that the Hebrews fought a lot of wars in their exodus from Egypt. And do I have to mention David, who killed Goliath? 😛

 

[Cosmic]

Historically they do. If you want to go further back: Islam was founded by one of Abraham's sons. However, by looking at the world now, and by reading their respective religious laws; do you still believe they're the same? It's very, very, very hard to argue that. As I said above: they both have very different main points and prophets.

The differences appear a lot less significant to someone who isn't very religious.

At the end of the day, a prophet is simply a messenger from God. While Christianity is one way to worship God, if there is truly a God, then I believe that he would manifest himself to more than just a single culture. Christianity has become a very western religion, and it speaks to how westerns think. Does it not make sense to say God might send multiple messengers, some to the West, and some to the East?

To me, Christianity is a religion that expresses worship of the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob in a Western way. Islam is an equivalent religion that has grown up around Middle Eastern culture, and includes many of the differences their culture has. It's much more conservative, because the people of that part of the world are conservative. Perhaps God's edicts are situational? Leviticus was written for people living in a specific time, and for their needs, just like the New Testament is intended for less desperate times? Perhaps Islam is a version of God's teachings directed at the Arabic peoples specifically?

 

[John]

Historically they do. If you want to go further back: Islam was founded by one of Abraham's sons. However, by looking at the world now, and by reading their respective religious laws; do you still believe they're the same? It's very, very, very hard to argue that. As I said above: they both have very different main points and prophets.

The differences appear a lot less significant to someone who isn't very religious.

At the end of the day, a prophet is simply a messenger from God. While Christianity is one way to worship God, if there is truly a God, then I believe that he would manifest himself to more than just a single culture. Christianity has become a very western religion, and it speaks to how westerns think. Does it not make sense to say God might send multiple messengers, some to the West, and some to the East?

To me, Christianity is a religion that expresses worship of the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob in a Western way. Islam is an equivalent religion that has grown up around Middle Eastern culture, and includes many of the differences their culture has. It's much more conservative, because the people of that part of the world are conservative. Perhaps God's edicts are situational? Leviticus was written for people living in a specific time, and for their needs, just like the New Testament is intended for less desperate times? Perhaps Islam is a version of God's teachings directed at the Arabic peoples specifically?

Shouldn't a "messenger from God" be someone who represents your religion? Someone who is the "posterboy," so to say for it? Again, there is a very big difference between Jesus and Mohammed. One's holy book wrote of him curing diseases, one's holy book wrote of their prophet looting people. Again, that doesn't show much peace at all, whatsoever.

I find it interesting that you did bring up the word Muslim in the sense as if we're attacking Muslims. I will mention again Muslims are not the issue Islam is. I already previous quoted exactly what Islam is from its own book. ISIS and Iran both show exactly what Islam stance is to the rest of the world. If you're blind to those two things I guess nothing will teach you until an Islamic is standing over your head and beheads you, maybe then you'll figure it out. The hard way, sadly.

Islam and Muslim are used interchangeably. Generally, Islam is the name of the religion, and a Muslim is someone who practices it. There really isn't a word for "Muslimism." 😛

That's incorrect. Per Google Islam is defined as:

the religion of the Muslims, a monotheistic faith regarded as revealed through Muhammad as the Prophet of Allah.

While Muslims are defined as:

a follower of the religion of Islam.

Those aren't interchangeable at all. 😛 One is referring to a follower; and the other is referring to the religion itself.

And I guess I'll condemn Islam right after I get beheaded, just like I'll ask for gun control after someone shoots me. Honestly, that argument is a classic appeal to emotion. The statistical chance of anyone dying from Islamic Terror is extremely, extremely low, particularly in the US. If you don't believe that, then I honestly don't know what to say. Run the numbers.

In Iraq, it's a pretty good chance. They killed 200 just two weeks ago: http://www.salon.com/2016/03/07/isis_ha ... _refugees/

We're not talking about Christianity though. 😛 We're talking (or at least, were talking) about Islam.

Right now, we're discussing how violent Islam is. Well, suppose someone created a machine that could tell you how violent a religion was. You ask the machine how violent Islam is, and it gives you the answer "5." The problem is, "5" doesn't mean much on its own. You have to consider other religions to have any context.

A religion can only be evaluated in terms of how it compares with other ones, just like you can only evaluate how good a television set is by comparing it with other, competing models. It's impossible to discuss how good or bad Islam is without considering its alternatives. If Islam's level of violence is a 5 and Christianity's is a 4, then that would mean Islam is violent, but not much more violent than what we're all used to. If Christianity's level of violence is a 1, then maybe it is a problem. But my point is that it's always based on context.

By saying that we should only discuss Islam, it feels to me like you're trying to avoid the issue. The fact is that the Bible has been used to justify atrocities, just like the Quoran has. All religion can be used to justify violence and hatred. Anything that humans are passionate about can.

That's like saying that a 200 MPH Tesla isn't fast, because they made a Corvette that can go faster now. It's a fact that countries with the highest percentage of Muslims (eg. Iran, Iraq, and Libya) are all having substantial issues with violence.

This is wrong. It's actually completely backwards lol. Judaism came first. Jesus was a Jew. The ministry of Jesus however became it's own religion and formed in Catholicism. From Catholicism came Protestantism when Martin Luther separated in the Reformation. Christianity as it is branched off from there. The idea that Christianity predates Catholics is ridiculous. The Catholic church is one of the oldest organized religions in history and stands today as the oldest Kingdom ever (considering it's reach and structure it is a kingdom). They do not worship the same God however. That is not fact.

This point actually is trivial. 😛

You are correct that Christianity is a very modern concept, although I wouldn't lump Paul's church in with the Catholic Church. If I recall correctly, the origin of the Catholic Church can be linked more closely to the fall of the Roman Empire, when the institution morphed from one supported by the Roman Emperors, to one that was able to survive as its own independent entity amongst the chaos of Dark Age Europe.

That said, this actually is getting a little bit irrelevant. 😛 You don't have to prove to me how much you know about the history of the early Christian Church if it's not relevant to the discussion.

Then perhaps you shouldn't be bring up points that are irrelevant, so we can debate whether or not the Islamic religion is violent? 😉 In a real debate, when people bring up irrelevant or incorrect points, you debate them. Prove that they're irrelevant or incorrect.

A cult hardly represents the entire following. Every organization has it's fringes. Islam however is not a small organization and it's teachings actually do promote a radicalized agenda. It's hard to discount the problems of Islam when they as a people have been at war with someone (at times themselves) for several THOUSAND years. Might be time to stop defending them and go "well, ****, there's a problem here" lol.

The United States has been in some war or another for most of its history. So have most countries. Wars are a fact of human existence, and religion is an extremely common justification for them. Just look at the wars between Catholic and Protestant countries in Europe around the time of the 1500s.

The Bible does not say the execute gay people. That is a lie. You know it's a lie, I know it's a lie, Hell probably everyone here knows it's a lie. You couldn't back it up even if you tried. The problem of course being that in the ten commandments it says "thou shall not kill". It doesn't say thou shall not kill (but **** those gays up). No, it says thou shall not kill. it's definitive. It's absolute. There's no room to question it. It's right there. So the claim the bible says to kill gays is as dishonest as it gets because within the first few chapters of the bible...you don't even have to read that far...your claim is completely debunked lol. The Bible contains the teaching of God. You can love it, you can hate it, you can curse it, you can praise it, but it's your soul gambling with. Don't believe in a soul? Don't, it believes in you. :yes:

This is what it says:

'If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
-Leviticus 20:13

I guess by "put to death," it means that they really hugged them and gave them a pat on the back? 😛

Again, you're comparing the Jewish Law to the Christian Law. This was a commandment to the Israelites: if you were reading the rest of this instead of one verse, you'd realize that this is when God is speaking to Moses after he gave him the Ten Commandments; and this law is to be only governed on the Israelites. In fact; if you read 20:1 it says: The Lord said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites. That, simply was made to law for one group of people. The Quran has much different words: ones that say to kill non-Muslims or to force your faith upon them:

Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

This was spoke in content when Muhammad was attempting to loot caravans. If you don't believe me see: http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/quran/2.htm

That said, that commandment has been translated in various ways. Sometimes as "Thou shalt not kill" and sometimes as "thou shalt not murder." Killing is the act of taking another person's life, while murder is the illegal act of taking another person's life.

If God commands you to take someone's life, then you have to do it. An example would be God commanding Abraham to kill Isaac (which Abraham was perfectly willing to do, and God felt necessary to test Abraham on). It should also be noted that the Hebrews fought a lot of wars in their exodus from Egypt. And do I have to mention David, who killed Goliath? 😛

David killing Goliath was in war. You know that quite well--now you're throwing it around. Again, we're debating Islam; not Christianity. If you'd like to debate Christianity, make a new thread.

 

[Cosmic]

Those aren't interchangeable at all. 😛 One is referring to a follower; and the other is referring to the religion itself.

That's what I said. 😛

"Generally, Islam is the name of the religion, and a Muslim is someone who practices it. There really isn't a word for "Muslimism." 😛"

In Iraq, it's a pretty good chance. They killed 200 just two weeks ago: http://www.salon.com/2016/03/07/isis_ha ... _refugees/

I don't live in Iraq though. 😛 Just because it's a problem there, doesn't make it a problem here. A lot of the rhetoric in the media and on this thread implies that ISIS is a thread to the mainland US. But it just isn't happening, outside a few shootings with tenuous connections to ISIS specifically. Even the shootings linked to Islamic Extremism aren't particularly related to ISIS specifically. When it comes to terror organizations, ISIS is a new kid on the block.

That's like saying that a 200 MPH Tesla isn't fast, because they made a Corvette that can go faster now. It's a fact that countries with the highest percentage of Muslims (eg. Iran, Iraq, and Libya) are all having substantial issues with violence.

There are a lot of things you could correlate the violence to. These countries also have a higher average temperature, different eating habits, different ethnicities, etc. Correlation is not causation. Just because a group of people share a religion happen to share another trait (violence), doesn't mean the religion is the cause. It does not say anything about a random person who also happens to follow the religion and has not exhibited any violent behavior. You could argue that someone coming from the region could be said to be more likely to be violent, though, perhaps.

Then perhaps you shouldn't be bring up points that are irrelevant, so we can debate whether or not the Islamic religion is violent? 😉 In a real debate, when people bring up irrelevant or incorrect points, you debate them. Prove that they're irrelevant or incorrect.

Then why don't you want to respond to my points about Christianity?

Personally, I think Christianity is definitely within the scope of the debate. As I said, you can't discuss the merits of one thing without discussing the merits of its competitors. Otherwise there's no context. Although I don't think it's worth debating the origins of Protestantism. That's where it does get a little bit out of the scope of the argument. 😛 Christianity is relevant to the discussion when compared with Islam, primarily.

Again, you're comparing the Jewish Law to the Christian Law. This was a commandment to the Israelites: if you were reading the rest of this instead of one verse, you'd realize that this is when God is speaking to Moses after he gave him the Ten Commandments; and this law is to be only governed on the Israelites. In fact; if you read 20:1 it says: The Lord said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites. That, simply was made to law for one group of people. The Quran has much different words: ones that say to kill non-Muslims or to force your faith upon them:

You haven't provided the same context for your quotes from the Quoran. And unless you actually read it (which neither of us is likely to do, TBH), then I don't think we'll ever truly have context on that.

The fact is that both the Old Testament Bible and the Quoran contain commandments where God instructs his people to go to war. I honestly think it's hypocritical for Christians to criticize Islam for containing similar passages to their Old Testament, and pretend that only they are allowed to supersede their outdated scriptures with more mature, reasoned ones.

The fact is that most religions were born in war. Mohammed was a warrior, but so were the Hebrews during their exodus. And the Hebrews weren't exactly considerate of the faiths of the peoples they passed through. Most religions have gone through a "convert or die" phase. That's why there are so many followers today. 😛 If you didn't convert to the Catholic church in medieval Europe, then you risked being treated as a heretic by the church.

David killing Goliath was in war. You know that quite well--now you're throwing it around. Again, we're debating Islam; not Christianity. If you'd like to debate Christianity, make a new thread.

People fight wars all the time though. We're in a war with ISIS apparently. Isn't it right for them to kill us, then? If the early Muslims fought a war against a group of infidels, then wouldn't killing them also be simply part of war?

If Christians can kill people during war, then so can any other faith.

 

[Deleted member 5665]

The fact is that both the Old Testament Bible and the Quran contain commandments where God instructs his people to go to war.

Old Testament does not actually. There were parts where god instructed the Jews to go to war with certain people that were in the wrong, but that's about it. Nowhere in the Old Testament or New does it instruct Christians to go to war.

Only 2 times can I recall Christians going to war in History.

1. Was when George Washington (who was a Christian mind you) who led the war against the British Empire.
2. The Crusades when Islam nations were attacking Christian nations.

Between 2 wars Christians have only and rightfully so defended for their own independence and rights to live from nations that sought to destroy Christianity. Christian has never been offensive it has always been on the defense of its right to exist while, sadly. Rest of the world wanted it destroyed. No other religion has ever been sought after for destruction more than the Jewish people and Christianity.

Sadly enough history repeat itself even today while the US is more inclined to shift towards Islam and push Christianity into the closet. They gave a position of political power to an Islamic woman to be Judge in New York City recently who full well plans to use her Islamic beliefs as a front to how she will handle people.

Also, they are teaching our next generation of children in school more about Islamic history in most states of America now than American history. I have seen many people complain about it on Facebook. One that got me the most was a veterans daughter couldn't finish school anymore because they attempted to force her to learn Islamic history to finish school because now it's demanded to know all about Islam, but American history is optional and she refused to partake in Islam so she couldn't finish school.

This country is going down the gutter if it continues as it does. Our own education system is breeding the next generation of Islamic fighters who will behead Americans that refuse to believe in Islam in the future.

 

[Cosmic]

The Revolutionary War and Crusades were the only times Christians went to war?

... That's just wrong. 😛

 

[Deleted member 5665]

The Revolutionary War and Crusades were the only times Christians went to war?

... That's just wrong. 😛

You say it's wrong, but instead of making a post prove me wrong you just say I am wrong. So that, in turn, would make that your opinion. :lol:

It seems like you're running out of ideas because you have nothing to left to back up what you think. 😉

 

[Cosmic]

The Revolutionary War and Crusades were the only times Christians went to war?

... That's just wrong. 😛

You say it's wrong, but instead of making a post prove me wrong you just say I am wrong. So that, in turn, would make that your opinion. :lol:

It seems like you're running out of ideas because you have nothing to left to back up what you think. 😉

The problem is that almost every war in Europe and the US were started by Christians. 😛

Here are three examples that I've researched and verified.

Mexican American War: Polk was a Methodist; Santa Anna was a Roman Catholic
Civil War: Abe Lincoln was Christian, Jefferson Davis was an Episcopalian.
Spanish American War: McKinley was a Methodist; Maria Christina (Queen of Spain) was a Roman Catholic.

If you look at the leaders in almost every war in US history, you'll find the President of the US was probably Christian. For nearly every war in European History from 500 AD to the present day, the Monarchs or Prime Ministers involved were Christians. And trust me, there were a lot of wars. If you don't believe me, look it up. 😛 The few exceptions were wars involving Fascism or Communism, which were both theist movements largely.

 

[Deleted member 5665]

The Revolutionary War and Crusades were the only times Christians went to war?

... That's just wrong. 😛

You say it's wrong, but instead of making a post prove me wrong you just say I am wrong. So that, in turn, would make that your opinion. :lol:

It seems like you're running out of ideas because you have nothing to left to back up what you think. 😉

The problem is that almost every war in Europe and the US were started by Christians. 😛

Here are three examples that I've researched and verified.

Mexican American War: Polk was a Methodist; Santa Anna was a Roman Catholic
Civil War: Abe Lincoln was Christian, Jefferson Davis was an Episcopalian.
Spanish American War: McKinley was a Methodist; Maria Christina (Queen of Spain) was a Roman Catholic.

If you look at the leaders in almost every war in US history, you'll find the President of the US was probably Christian. For nearly every war in European History from 500 AD to the present day, the Monarchs or Prime Ministers involved were Christians. And trust me, there were a lot of wars. If you don't believe me, look it up. 😛 The few exceptions were wars involving Fascism or Communism, which were both theist movements largely.

Civil War would be incorrect. Abe Lincoln was a Christian that is correct, but Christians overall were on both sides on both North and South. You would be surprised by how many Christians stayed out of it. It was a war more for political shift than for black freedom.

Roman Catholics aren't Christians just saying.

Mexican American War was started by Mexico and they paid the price for it. Interesting that you blame Christians when they had nothing to do with it. :lol:

As for Spanish-American War... It was because we intervened in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_War_of_Independence

Seems like you're using people's religious beliefs in order to prove something that which doesn't exist. That has nothing to do with Christianity, but more to do with politics.

Now you're just making stuff up because you have nothing left. 😛

 

[Kino]

This is what Donald Trump is doing to his supporters. He's being what was coined a "fear mongerer" and he's creating a real hostile environment for Muslim Americans here in the States.

He's making people people that there is a credible threat on U.S. mainland...oh wait I forgot he doesn't even have basic national security intelligence access.

ISIS began because the United States believes in regime change and in the 70's we funded what evolved into Al Queda and then in the 80's we funded the people of Iran and that has turned into ISIS. Muslim extremists are pissed at the United States because we have gone over there, interrupted their thousands of years of tradition because we didn't think what they were doing was "morally" right.

Ron Paul 2016

 

[Deleted member 5665]

ISIS began because the United States believes in regime change and in the 70's we funded what evolved into Al Queda and then in the 80's we funded the people of Iran and that has turned into ISIS. Muslim extremists are pissed at the United States because we have gone over there, interrupted their thousands of years of tradition because we didn't think what they were doing was "morally" right.

ISIS, A Queda, etc. All of it is Islam. If time could be reversed and things changed. It may not be even called ISIS today, but another name. Islam will be what it is since the Crusades. This is how it will end.

Either everyone on the earth is killed that doesn't believe in Islam.
or the world comes together and agrees Islam should end.

As for the part in bold. We live in 2016. I think we should put them in their place and not allow children to be married off to 40-year-old men, raping freely, etc. This is the world that needs to be modernized and civil. Not like what it is over there.

We live on one planet and it is something we have to take care of it. We all live together so we have to be civilized and understand the simple moral correctness of right and wrong. If you aren't moral then what are you? Political correctness is an excuse to be immoral and barbaric if you choose to be and is extremely hypocritical.

 

[John]

This is what Donald Trump is doing to his supporters. He's being what was coined a "fear mongerer" and he's creating a real hostile environment for Muslim Americans here in the States.

That's really hard to argue: if you look at the statistics, Trump has more Muslim votes than all the other Republican candidates put together. If Trump is creating such a hostile environment, shouldn't the Muslims boycott him with their vote? I personally found this article very interesting about Muslims supporting Trump: http://www.ibtimes.com/meet-muslim-amer ... er-2327390

 

[Cosmic]

The Revolutionary War and Crusades were the only times Christians went to war?

... That's just wrong. 😛

You say it's wrong, but instead of making a post prove me wrong you just say I am wrong. So that, in turn, would make that your opinion. :lol:

It seems like you're running out of ideas because you have nothing to left to back up what you think. 😉

The problem is that almost every war in Europe and the US were started by Christians. 😛

Here are three examples that I've researched and verified.

Mexican American War: Polk was a Methodist; Santa Anna was a Roman Catholic
Civil War: Abe Lincoln was Christian, Jefferson Davis was an Episcopalian.
Spanish American War: McKinley was a Methodist; Maria Christina (Queen of Spain) was a Roman Catholic.

If you look at the leaders in almost every war in US history, you'll find the President of the US was probably Christian. For nearly every war in European History from 500 AD to the present day, the Monarchs or Prime Ministers involved were Christians. And trust me, there were a lot of wars. If you don't believe me, look it up. 😛 The few exceptions were wars involving Fascism or Communism, which were both theist movements largely.

Civil War would be incorrect. Abe Lincoln was a Christian that is correct, but Christians overall were on both sides on both North and South. You would be surprised by how many Christians stayed out of it. It was a war more for political shift than for black freedom.

Roman Catholics aren't Christians just saying.

Mexican American War was started by Mexico and they paid the price for it. Interesting that you blame Christians when they had nothing to do with it. :lol:

As for Spanish-American War... It was because we intervened in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_War_of_Independence

Seems like you're using people's religious beliefs in order to prove something that which doesn't exist. That has nothing to do with Christianity, but more to do with politics.

Now you're just making stuff up because you have nothing left. 😛

I find it interesting that you find any excuse to call the starts of wars in Europe and America non-Christian, when if someone started a war in the Middle East, you say they're obviously a real devout Muslim. 😛

I'm not saying that these wars were started for religious reasons, but the people who started them were obviously religious. You said that the last time a Christian started a war was when "George Washington (who was a Christian mind you) led the war against the British Empire." First off, George Washington didn't even start the war. The war was started by a group of (almost entirely) Christians called the Continental Congress. That said, you can't say that that war was started by a Christian and then turn around and say that the Civil War, or any other war in American History pretty much, wasn't.

Face it: Christians start wars all the time, for all kinds of reasons. So do Muslims. So does everyone.

 

[Cosmic]

ISIS began because the United States believes in regime change and in the 70's we funded what evolved into Al Queda and then in the 80's we funded the people of Iran and that has turned into ISIS. Muslim extremists are pissed at the United States because we have gone over there, interrupted their thousands of years of tradition because we didn't think what they were doing was "morally" right.

ISIS, A Queda, etc. All of it is Islam. If time could be reversed and things changed. It may not be even called ISIS today, but another name. Islam will be what it is since the Crusades. This is how it will end.

Either everyone on the earth is killed that doesn't believe in Islam.
or the world comes together and agrees Islam should end.

As for the part in bold. We live in 2016. I think we should put them in their place and not allow children to be married off to 40-year-old men, raping freely, etc. This is the world that needs to be modernized and civil. Not like what it is over there.

We live on one planet and it is something we have to take care of it. We all live together so we have to be civilized and understand the simple moral correctness of right and wrong. If you aren't moral then what are you? Political correctness is an excuse to be immoral and barbaric if you choose to be and is extremely hypocritical.

What does "or the world comes together and agrees Islam should end" entail?

 

[Deleted member 5665]

What does "or the world comes together and agrees Islam should end" entail?

I'm personally not in the mood to repeat myself right now, but I will attempt to put it as simple as possible.

Christianity as a religion has faced many times coming to a near brink destruction throughout history simply due it's basic belief in peace and thoughtfulness. The US Government and the Constitution built on a simple foundation based on the Bible itself. The freedoms this nation has had and the concept of freedom of choice is widely promoted in the Bible.

Christianity is hated mainly for the concept of what it promotes and that is freedom of choice.

Islam on the other hard is the pure opposite of what Christianity stands for. It seeks to take away any form of freedom of choice from every single person on this planet and bring a single opinion and single law that everyone has to abide by regardless of what individuals think. It is either you believe the way how Islam works or you die.

Islam supports everything not just the Bible disagree's with, but even modern society disagrees with. Murder, lying, rape, pedophilia, etc. So I am going to be absolutely honest and I don't care if anyone here gets offended. If you support Islam then you support all the ideals Islam supports as I mentioned.

Iran, Iraq, Al Qaeda, ISIS and many terrorist organizations in the Middle-East that the West (US and allies) have been against all support the ideas of Islam and have proven then.

ISIS captures and kills anyone that disagree's with Islam. Iran is an Islamic state that has a union between its Islamic beliefs and state. They allow 9-year-olds to be married off to older men.

Any normal, sane person would be against such things and realize by common sense alone how wrong Islam is. Only people that aren't against it are those who support their ideas. This isn't the concept of simply opinions and just wanting to ignore the issue it is you agree with Islam or you don't.

I for sure won't agree with Islam ever it is an abomination and should be banned globally. I wish the UN would step up and say it needs to be handled with. I am not asking for the death of Muslims I am asking for the death of an evil organization which is called Islam.

So if anyone here dares says Muslim one more time you're an ignorant fool. This has nothing to do with race. Islam is not a race it is an extremely evil cult that is just a repeat of history that so many people have fought against. British Empire, Nazi Germany, Roman Empire, etc.

Islam seeks destruction, power and to rule everyone under its own ideals. Just as the same as Nazi German, Roman Empire and the British Empire.

If you can't see that then ignorance is bliss they say.