Abortion

[avguste]

This is a topic I stay from.
As far as I am concerned, this is a subject for woman to decide on.
We guys can do only one thing: support the woman decision whether we like it or not.

 

[SheepishWolf]

This is a topic I stay from.
As far as I am concerned, this is a subject for woman to decide on.
We guys can do only one thing: support the woman decision whether we like it or not.

Why? The mother wouldn't be the only one raising it and the mother isn't the only one in the relationship or who it would effect. In a couple shouldn't you agree on making decisions (especially ones this important) instead of it just being one-sided?

 

[katy perry is hot]

With regard to your post above snowflake, yes, of course the decision should be discussed. However, the mother has the ultimate choice when it comes to her body. Abortion is legal right now. Do you think it's ok for the father to block a woman from aborting the baby? Do you think it's ok for the father to not want the baby, so he forces her to get an abortion against her will? It's not one sided that way, right!

A mother having (or not having) an abortion could largely impact the world. Hitlers mommy was going to have abortion, but her doctor talked her out of it. Regardless of whether it was a good impact or not, it was still an impact none the less.

The person that the mother is choosing to kill for whatever reason could be the next president (or the next Zodiac killer, but lets look at the bright side of things).

I really don't see any reason for abortion unless both the mother and baby will be killed through the delivery -

Alright, at least you aren't one of those WHAT IF JESUS WAS ABORTED or WHAT IF GANDHI WERE ABORTED etc people.

Teen getting pregnant and not ready - It's her fault for spreading her legs; I see no reason for a baby having to be killed because she isn't ready for something she got herself into. She could either grow up really fast or give it up for adoption/foster care.

Regardless of whose fault is is, let me ask you this: Do you think it is right to force a woman to carry a baby as a punishment for 'spreading her legs'? Do you think it's right to force an unwanted baby to be brought into this world because the mother did not have an option to abort and was forced to carry it as a punishment?
And what if the teen still wants the abortion, and she can't go to a medical doctor to have it safely performed? She then has to go to a back alley and have it taken out with a coat hanger.
Like I said, my beliefs on abortion are not ultra feminist. Like most democrats in congress, I believe abortions should be safe, legal, and rare.

A woman being raped - yes, it could serve as a constant reminder of what happened to the woman, but it's not the baby who raped her. Like I said above, if she doesn't want it then give it to adoption/foster care. Being one of those children who came into foster care/adoption when I was little, I can say that it's not a bad program and they only give to approved, nice families.

It is very traumatic for girls to go through a pregnancy and then give the baby away and it's probably for traumatic for the girl to have to do that over an abortion. These financially unstable mothers who will no longer be able to get abortions will now be forced to care for an unwanted baby. What if they cannot afford to get the baby proper food? What if they cannot afford to properly cloth the baby?
Don't make all women who get abortions into monsters by saying "GET AN ADOPTION", and especially in the rape scenario. That brings the worst out of me.

 

[Watch Me Sink]

It is very traumatic for girls to go through a pregnancy and then give the baby away and it's probably for traumatic for the girl to have to do that over an abortion. These financially unstable mothers who will no longer be able to get abortions will now be forced to care for an unwanted baby. What if they cannot afford to get the baby proper food? What if they cannot afford to properly cloth the baby?
Don't make all women who get abortions into monsters by saying "GET AN ADOPTION", and especially in the rape scenario. That brings the worst out of me.

Consider this:
A baby is born and the mother loses her job (let's say the employer gave her enough time off, legally, but the woman wanted more) and the father is nowhere in sight. The mother does not have enough money to feed or clothe the baby, and it would be traumatic to give up the baby for adoption. Can the baby be aborted?

 

[katy perry is hot]

It is very traumatic for girls to go through a pregnancy and then give the baby away and it's probably for traumatic for the girl to have to do that over an abortion. These financially unstable mothers who will no longer be able to get abortions will now be forced to care for an unwanted baby. What if they cannot afford to get the baby proper food? What if they cannot afford to properly cloth the baby?
Don't make all women who get abortions into monsters by saying "GET AN ADOPTION", and especially in the rape scenario. That brings the worst out of me.

Consider this:
A baby is born and the mother loses her job (let's say the employer gave her enough time off, legally, but the woman wanted more) and the father is nowhere in sight. The mother does not have enough money to feed or clothe the baby, and it would be traumatic to give up the baby for adoption. Can the baby be aborted?

I know what you're trying to get at, and it was an actually interesting point.
However, we are talking about when the fetus is in her body and she is acting as a host for said baby. Not months after it is born. Then it wouldn't be an abortion, because we're not talking about aborting a pregnancy, we're talking about murdering a living human being that breaths, eats, etc on its own.

Again, when abortion is done as an issue of the mother's economic status, that's her call, just like it's her call when it's in the case of rape, in the case of severe genetic defects, or hell, even in the case of using it for birth control. To reiterate what I mean, you really bring up a good point, but it doesn't change the fact that as long as the pregnancy is still active before 6 months, she should be able to do what she wishes with it.

 

[SheepishWolf]

Alright, at least you aren't one of those WHAT IF JESUS WAS ABORTED or WHAT IF GANDHI WERE ABORTED etc people.

If I said "What if Jesus was aborted?" then that argument would be invalid for everyone who doesn't believe that Jesus is the son of God, savior, and all that stuff. Besides I personally think using Hitler was a much more interesting example.

Regardless of whose fault is is, let me ask you this: Do you think it is right to force a woman to carry a baby as a punishment for 'spreading her legs'? Do you think it's right to force an unwanted baby to be brought into this world because the mother did not have an option to abort and was forced to carry it as a punishment?
And what if the teen still wants the abortion, and she can't go to a medical doctor to have it safely performed? She then has to go to a back alley and have it taken out with a coat hanger.
Like I said, my beliefs on abortion are not ultra feminist. Like most democrats in congress, I believe abortions should be safe, legal, and rare.

Yes. Yes. She deals with it for six or so months, and in that time she hopefully learns to think before her actions and maybe even look forward to being a mother. It can get taken out with a coat hanger? :lol: Don't you think that would be more painful than giving birth? Although I see you point because if she knew she couldn't handle it or whatever reason, she may go to those...'extreme' things.

It is very traumatic for girls to go through a pregnancy and then give the baby away and it's probably for traumatic for the girl to have to do that over an abortion. These financially unstable mothers who will no longer be able to get abortions will now be forced to care for an unwanted baby. What if they cannot afford to get the baby proper food? What if they cannot afford to properly cloth the baby?
Don't make all women who get abortions into monsters by saying "GET AN ADOPTION", and especially in the rape scenario. That brings the worst out of me.

I do see what you're saying, but it's going to be traumatic either way. At least with the giving to an adoption she'll know that what burdened her for so long is now living a happy life and may grow up to hopefully have better experiences and live fully.

 

[katy perry is hot]

Yes. She deals with it for six or so months, and in that time she hopefully learns to think before her actions and maybe even look forward to being a mother.

You think that women who have unwanted pregnancies should be forced to bare the child as punishment so she can learn the consequences of her actions? So it doesn't matter if she doesn't want the child. It doesn't matter that the child will probably be born into a terrible home. That doesn't matter to you, all you're worried about is "teaching those stupid sluts for opening their legs" right?

It can get taken out with a coat hanger? :lol: Don't you think that would be more painful than giving birth? Although I see you point because if she knew she couldn't handle it or whatever reason, she may go to those...'extreme' things.

Yes, and I really don't know what the hell is so wrong with you that you can write a dancing smiley face.
Your not knowing that just shows how uneducated and not aware of this topic you are. Coat hanger abortions were extremely prevalent before Roe v Wade. Other methods include kicking or punching the fetus, lifting very heavy weights, dropping those heavy weights onto the abdominal area, or utilizing a wood or aluminum baseball bat.

but it's going to be traumatic either way.

Exactly. So let her make that choice, not you.

 

[SheepishWolf]

Yes, and I really don't know what the hell is so wrong with you that you can write a dancing smiley face.
Your not knowing that just shows how uneducated and not aware of this topic you are. Coat hanger abortions were extremely prevalent before Roe v Wade. Other methods include kicking or punching the fetus, lifting very heavy weights, dropping those heavy weights onto the abdominal area, or utilizing a wood or aluminum baseball bat.

I find it funny that people would do that when there's much simpler things they could do that would be more ethical, just giving birth to it and giving it to someone else who could care for it. Yes, it would be burdening them for a certain amount of time but after that it's over without killing an innocent soul

Exactly. So let her make that choice, not you.

When you say it that way, why discuss this at all if in the end it's just going to the mother decision whether it's legally being done in a hospital or with a coat hanger or whatever in some alley. The same could be said with the Prostitution and similar debates.

In the end it's just unethical to end a life unless your own and its life is at risk. If you don't want it after its born then you can just give it to someone who will actually love it. Taking away someones right to live because you personally don't want to or can't (when you have the ability to do otherwise) shouldn't be legal [in my opinion].

 

[katy perry is hot]

I find it funny that people would do that when there's much simpler things they could do that would be more ethical, just giving birth to it and giving it to someone else who could care for it. Yes, it would be burdening them for a certain amount of time but after that it's over without killing an innocent soul

Who says it's more ethical to force a woman to have an unwanted pregnancy? I find that to be terribly unethical and a total violation of simple human rights.

We're talking about the one person that will host this being inside of her for nine months, endure agony just to give birth, and then sacrifice for the rest of her life to raise this child. We are talking about people with the power to make and raise life like this, and at the same time you are trying to deliberate when, and where these women get to make the choice.

This whole argument that it's a life form, and that it deserves a chance to thrive is made moot by the fact that ultimately, it will never get a chance without its mother.

The way your posts are written sound as if women say"Oh no, I'm pregnant, but I really wanted to go to the Bahamas this summer, guess I better get an abortion." That's simply not the case. This is a gigantic moral dilemma for the woman and your comments are really unpleasing.

When you say it that way, why discuss this at all if in the end it's just going to the mother decision whether it's legally being done in a hospital or with a coat hanger or whatever in some alley. The same could be said with the Prostitution and similar debates.

Because, if it's made illegal again, mothers will die also. Like I said, after Roe v Wade, the amount of women who died from abortion procedures pretty much dropped flat. If you want mothers to die, then that's your problem.

In the end it's just unethical to end a life unless your own and its life is at risk. If you don't want it after its born then you can just give it to someone who will actually love it. Taking away someones right to live because you personally don't want to or can't (when you have the ability to do otherwise) shouldn't be legal [in my opinion].

No, in the end it boils down to the fact that one person should not be able to dictate whether or not another person can have a baby.
Adoption is not a better choice than abortion no matter how you look at it. the fact is, most women who have an abortion are traumatized by the entire experience. That why I hate it when people like you act like abortion is a casual solution for a woman.

 

[JoeMomma]

Wow, long thread. I regret to say I did not read all 29 pages.

Here in the states one can drop unwanted babies off at fire stations and safe houses, no questions asked. If you dont want the baby, dont kill it, surrender it. Life is precious and should not be toyed with...an idea quickly vanishing in a "progressive" world where we are inundated with luxuries.

This is often compared to assisted suicides. Your body, you can do as you please, right? If you are really sick you may feel like just ending it...but what if you get better? You are not in the same mindset as when you would have made the decision.

Women are under emotional changes when they are pregnant. They are not in the same emotional mindset as they were prior to and after being pregnant.

Herion addicts are also in a completly differnt mindset. They will do ANYTHING to get their next fix...including on infringing upon the rights of others.

 

[katy perry is hot]

Wow, long thread. I regret to say I did not read all 29 pages.

Here in the states one can drop unwanted babies off at fire stations and safe houses, no questions asked. If you dont want the baby, dont kill it, surrender it. Life is precious and should not be toyed with...an idea quickly vanishing in a "progressive" world where we are inundated with luxuries.

This is often compared to assisted suicides. Your body, you can do as you please, right? If you are really sick you may feel like just ending it...but what if you get better? You are not in the same mindset as when you would have made the decision.

Women are under emotional changes when they are pregnant. They are not in the same emotional mindset as they were prior to and after being pregnant.

Herion addicts are also in a completly differnt mindset. They will do ANYTHING to get their next fix...including on infringing upon the rights of others.

Please read the post I made above because it refutes pretty much everything you just said... other than the heroin addicts remark.

 

[ItsZippy]

A mother having (or not having) an abortion could largely impact the world. Hitlers mommy was going to have abortion, but her doctor talked her out of it. Regardless of whether it was a good impact or not, it was still an impact none the less.

The person that the mother is choosing to kill for whatever reason could be the next president (or the next Zodiac killer, but lets look at the bright side of things).

I really don't see any reason for abortion unless both the mother and baby will be killed through the delivery -

Teen getting pregnant and not ready - It's her fault for spreading her legs; I see no reason for a baby having to be killed because she isn't ready for something she got herself into. She could either grow up really fast or give it up for adoption/foster care.
A woman being raped - yes, it could serve as a constant reminder of what happened to the woman, but it's not the baby who raped her. Like I said above, if she doesn't want it then give it to adoption/foster care. Being one of those children who came into foster care/adoption when I was little, I can say that it's not a bad program and they only give to approved, nice families.

Just my opinion though.

I completely agree.

Irviding, you talk about punishing the mother with having to carry a baby for 9 months; is it not more of a punishment to the child to take their life because they are unlucky enough to have the wrong parents?

Why should it be the mother's decision? At the end of the day, it is not the mother's life. Just because she is supporting the baby does not mean that she has the right to decide whether or not it lives. It is not 'her body', it is the baby's. The baby has all the potential for life, removing that potential is taking the right to life from it.

 

[JoeMomma]

Please read the post I made above because it refutes pretty much everything you just said... other than the heroin addicts remark.

errmmm...really? With statements like "Adoption is not a better choice than abortion no matter how you look at it." without any insight? I wouldnt consider this a refute. In fact, it feels like I am having a shallow conversation with a bot that is making general random statements with no debth or insight. An opinion is not a refute.

In fact...i dont see you refuting anything I posted...you didnt mention anything about the emotional state of mind women are in when the are pregnant. You didnt say anything about the extent of rights you deem reasonable for anyone to have, such as suicide...

And if you really want to get into it what would you say is the latest time to have an abortion? The way you say the baby is a "parasite" feeding off the mother it would seem you endorse late stage abortions too? Which are not legal? Please tell me at what point you think it is the mothers right to kill the unborn child that is feeding off her? Anytime prior to labor? If you believe this you are one of the very few people who would endorse such a careless waste of human life.

What about the fact that once the child is born the mother is required to take care of the baby? Human rights...let them do what they think best right? After all, the mother is the one required to change and take care of the born baby...but in your mindset wouldnt you say that they are still like "parasites" in the fact that they still feed off the monther in a sense?

You want to talk about human rights? The unborn child is a human. Human rights have nothing to do with hether or not you want to have a child once you are pregnant.

 

[katy perry is hot]

Zippy,
The fetus cannot live without the woman, and is therefore part of her body.
If you go down the road of "potential for life" being the criteria, that means all menstrual fluids should be saved and the egg harvested, and all sperm should be bottled for future insemination. Do you support the morning afterpill either of you? Because if you do, your arguments go flying out the window.

Joe, I support abortion rights up to the 6 month mark. Anything after that would have to be real severe cases (not rape, I'm talking about death of the mother) because at that 6 month mark, the fetus is pretty much able to provide for itself and killing it would be infanticide.

Regarding the suicides, I support that, and a large majority of Americans do also. There was a poll that came out a few weeks ago on either fox news or CNN but I forget.

Yes. Let them do what is best, just like all parents have the right to do. And no, it's not still like a parasite, because the live, new born baby is not just leeching off the mother's body to survive. I guess the main argument is, the second that baby is born, the mother doesn't *need* to take care of it. The father can do anything she can at that point, and therefore it is no longer a 'parasite'.

Thank you Joe for bringing up an actual argument other than demonizing women like a few people above.

 

[Watch Me Sink]

If you go down the road of "potential for life" being the criteria, that means all menstrual fluids should be saved and the egg harvested, and all sperm should be bottled for future insemination.

Because those two are not humans yet. And there are not enough eggs in the world to fertilize all the sperm even in 1 man.

 

[JoeMomma]

The majority of Americans polled on euthanasian thought legalizing euthanasia wouldn't sufficiently protect vulnerable people. I dont know if you have been around a pregnant woman before, what with hormones and everything, but I would consider their mindset to be more vulnerable.

Joe, I support abortion rights up to the 6 month mark. Anything after that would have to be real severe cases (not rape, I'm talking about death of the mother) because at that 6 month mark, the fetus is pretty much able to provide for itself and killing it would be infanticide.

There have been many babies born under 6 months, many still alive today. They are able to survive without the mother, thanks to technology. If technology advances even further and they would be able to be able to keep even younger babies alive without the support of the mother would you opinon change? Furthermore, the baby can only survive outside of the mothers womb...

Yes. Let them do what is best, just like all parents have the right to do.

Many parents go to jail for child abuse in doing what they think is best.

And no, it's not still like a parasite, because the live, new born baby is not just leeching off the mother's body to survive

But somebody needs to take care of the baby for it to survive. Does whoever is required to take care of the newborn baby have a right to determine if it should live or not? "parasite" or not, it is alive. It has a beating heart, a developing brain, it is learning. Taking of life is not something I support.

 

[Watch Me Sink]

Joe, I support abortion rights up to the 6 month mark. Anything after that would have to be real severe cases (not rape, I'm talking about death of the mother) because at that 6 month mark, the fetus is pretty much able to provide for itself and killing it would be infanticide.

There have been many babies born under 6 months, many still alive today.

Earliest was 21 weeks 5 days, still alive today.

 

[katy perry is hot]

The majority of Americans polled on euthanasian thought legalizing euthanasia wouldn't sufficiently protect vulnerable people. I dont know if you have been around a pregnant woman before, what with hormones and everything, but I would consider their mindset to be more vulnerable.

So now you're saying pregnant women are mentally ill and unable to make decisions for themselves? K, good luck arguing that one.

There have been many babies born under 6 months, many still alive today. They are able to survive without the mother, thanks to technology. If technology advances even further and they would be able to be able to keep even younger babies alive without the support of the mother would you opinon change? Furthermore, the baby can only survive outside of the mothers womb...

There have been many, but it's still considered very pre mature and unhealthy to be born before 6 months. Most states require either before 6 months or before 3 months. I'm happy to take the inbetween route in this case because there are many extenuating circumstances in which a mother may not be able to get right to the clinic, may not have reached a decision, etc.

Many parents go to jail for child abuse in doing what they think is best.

Abusing a living in child is not the same as an abortion friend.

But somebody needs to take care of the baby for it to survive. Does whoever is required to take care of the newborn baby have a right to determine if it should live or not? "parasite" or not, it is alive. It has a beating heart, a developing brain, it is learning. Taking of life is not something I support.

NO. What part of my last 5 posts are none of you reading? Stop trying to twist my words. The only time a determination is made when it is still using the mother's body as a host. THAT'S IT. Nothing else. Grasping at straws much?

Because those two are not humans yet. And there are not enough eggs in the world to fertilize all the sperm even in 1 man.

Are not humans yet? There is no scientific consensus on when human life begins. I could argue to you that there is a potential for life in every single sperm and in every single egg. That sperm didn't do anything wrong, why are you masturbating and wasting potential human life? All it needs is to be fertilized by an egg, which by the way, all of you terrible women who have periods every month and kill a life, you should be hanged (or hung).

And none of you answered me. Do you all support the morning after pill? The morning after pill stops the sperm from fertilizing the egg. That right there blocks the potential for life the same way an abortion does.
Do you support birth control shots? Do you support using the pill (not morning after)?

Sure there are. Each woman is born with about a million eggs and though that's all they have, and men keep producing, you could surely take a couple hundred women to fertilize every single sperm in a man.

 

[JoeMomma]

So now you're saying pregnant women are mentally ill and unable to make decisions for themselves? K, good luck arguing that one.

Mentally ill? LoL...seriously dude, I can tell you have never been around a pregnant woman before. You are way out of your league with this discussion. It is a scientific fact that women go through hormonal changes when they are pregnant that do in fact affect the way a woman thinks and feels. This can cause depression (among other things such as 'nesting' syndrome) that is usually attributed to the sudden, quick change in hormones. This is somewhat like the baby blues, which I am sure you have heard of. Lets liken this somewhat to offering euthanasia to someone who is chronically depressed and has a dopamine imbalance. Should we allow them to have themselves killed because that is how they felt at the moment? You are way off the target on this one.

I'm happy to take the inbetween route in this case because there are many extenuating circumstances in which a mother may not be able to get right to the clinic, may not have reached a decision, etc.

So first you say your desicion is based on a healthy baby? Is this a scientific consensus? At 6 months? Really? How do you define 'healthy'? And then you say it is because the mother has not made a choice yet or cant get to a clinic? Which one is it? Why not at 9 months? Maybe the mother hasnt made a choice at 9 months or hasnt had a chance to get to a clinic at 9 months? You are a lost soul.

Stop trying to twist my words. The only time a determination is made when it is still using the mother's body as a host. THAT'S IT. Nothing else. Grasping at straws much?

Ermmm...that is until t he baby is born? Usually at 9 months? But then you say you only condone it up to 6 months? Seriously man, grasping at straws? I understand this is your way to try to put down other points and increase the validity of yours but it isnt working, it is only making you look like a flip flopping fool.

Are not humans yet? There is no scientific consensus on when human life begins.

I dont need a consensus to know what I believe, however, the generally accepted scientific definition of life supports that life occurs at or shortly after fertilization. At what point do YOU feel life begins?

Earliest was 21 weeks 5 days, still alive today.

Is this baby...alive? before 6 months? How can you say now that you are not taking life at a 6 month abortion?

And none of you answered me. Do you all support the morning after pill? The morning after pill stops the sperm from fertilizing the egg. That right there blocks the potential for life the same way an abortion does.
Do you support birth control shots? Do you support using the pill (not morning after)?

I believe this has been answered many times in the 30 pages of this thread. I really dont want to go into the birds & the bees with you and let you know how everything works. I support responsible actions. If you dont want to have a baby then dont get pregnant...there are simple steps to preventing pregnancy that dont involve pills and drugs... If you get raped, then I am sorry, but life really can suck at times. Deal with it as best you can. Nobody will force you to keep the baby but that doesnt mean you should kill it.

 

[katy perry is hot]

Deal with it as best you can? You're lucky a rape victim or a rape victim's husband/boyfriend didn't read that because you would have the living shít knocked out of you. I dare you to go up to a woman who was raped and tell her that she needs to carry her rapist's baby because if she doesn't she is a worthless excuse for a human being for aborting it. Every waking day of her 9 month pregnancy she will wake up seeing a baby that was forced upon her by a rapist. Every time she even thinks about her pregnancy, she will be reminded of that rape. And you have the audacity to come in here and say she should deal with it?

Life can really suck at times.. how dare you say that... Go get raped, then come back here, and tell me that you are "dealing with it the best way you can" and "life can really suck".

A lot of people here are against abortion and I get on with them fine, but you, someone who can come in here and say "rape victims should just deal with it because there are bad times in life", I have zero respect for. I can at least respect the Christians who will say that god puts life in everything and say alright that's their religion, but you with your degenerate, arrogant, sexist attitude, are a disgusting piece of garbage. And with that, I refuse to answer any more of your posts. Have a good day.